shadowfax wrote: that's the understanding of the Green Witch from which my comments come.

Aha! This explains a lot! My first exposure to the Siren was when the best coffee you could get on a regular basis sat on a warmer, under a drip, for hours at a time. I was still pretty damned proud of what was coming outta my Steamtoy! ; >
From that viewpoint, seeing Green Aprons pulling shots out of fancy LM's with their 'fresh-roasted' coffee coming out of a grinder (look, you could see the grinder, right there on the counter!) was a pretty outstanding set of values dedicated to providing me with a superior cuppa joe. Fast forward to 2005, and a series of events transpired that really disappointed me in Starbucks, Mr. Schultze, and super-auto machines.
Knowing the sources of others' points-of-view really does help in understanding their reactions!

shadowfax wrote:This is what's catching me. Nothing I've ever seen or read of Starbucks has ever struck me like Counter Culture, Intelligentsia, Cuvée, and others do. They were never committed to the principles that drive those companies. They never lost their principles because what they've done as a company isn't against their principles. For the third wave to become Starbucks (i.e. sacrifice freshness and quality for profit and mass scale) would be in essence for them to turn their backs on their core values, like a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde thing. Maybe this is all my confusion, but that's the understanding of the Green Witch from which my comments come.

I would personally disagree with this. The original owners of Starbucks seem to both know what good coffee is and have a commitment to it. I don't think they agree with the path their former head of marketing took when he bought the company. I suspect that even Mr. Schultz knows what good coffee is, based on the little cafe he had started before returning to run Starbucks; however investor pressures for a publicly traded company compelled him to go in the direction that he has.

That said, I do enjoy the espresso at the "Third Wave" cafes, but I find your optimistic views charmingly naive. They have the luxury of newer fancier espresso equipment and the refined knowledge of espresso that has become rather ubiquitous with the advent of the Internet. Nevertheless, the fundamental business model has remained extant; neither have the socioeconomic pressures that shape business changed. That is the concern I expressed. It is almost as if the small espresso cafe must constantly struggle against its own success, constantly remaining idealistic to an almost iconoclastic degree to preserve those very things for which they are extolled by us.

Unfortunately, I have seen no indication of this occurring, rather the opposite, the slippery slide, the insidious creep. Put another way: for the Third Wave cafes, gain is loss; failure is success.

drdna wrote:That said, I do enjoy the espresso at the "Third Wave" cafes, but I find your optimistic views charmingly naive.
Unfortunately, I have seen no indication of this occurring, rather the opposite, the slippery slide, the insidious creep. Put another way: for the Third Wave cafes, gain is loss; failure is success.

I dunno, I guess I might prefer 'charmingly naive' to 'depressingly cynical'.
The issue is that everyone wants to make a killing in business nowadays, instead of just a living.
Most of the same people that suppose that a coffee grower on the other side of the planet ought to be able top make a living off of his land might be able to be satisfied with having a decent living with a decent roasting business, or decent coffee shop.
Sometimes it ain't the slope that's slippery, it's the shoes.

Getting back to the movie, now that the DVD is shipping, has anyone seen it at home? More to the point, does anyone who has seen it (not necessarily just at home) care to comment on how interesting/useful it would be for repeated viewings at home, say as compared to the videos of shots being pulled that are posted for all to see on Youtube? I know the movie isn't intended as an "instructional video", but from the on-line description, it seems as though it might contain scenes that might be useful for this purpose.

I don't think it has a great deal of "re-watchability." There are a few interspersed scenes of baristas making drinks, but it's really nothing compared to the already available instructional videos on the subject or the freely available videos on Youtube. The documentary is really a commentary on coffee culture in the US/Italy which is framed within Amy's story of how she fell in love with traditional espresso drinks (namely the cappuccino) and the story of the struggle of DoubleShot Coffee company in Tulsa against Starbucks over their attempt to police their attempt to trademark that term.

Speaking of, it just occurred to me that'd be an interesting thing for Dan to study in considering his position with this site's choice of name and policing its brand...

drdna wrote:That said, I do enjoy the espresso at the "Third Wave" cafes, but I find your optimistic views charmingly naive. They have the luxury of newer fancier espresso equipment and the refined knowledge of espresso that has become rather ubiquitous with the advent of the Internet.

I'm not sure if I'm understanding your point: are you faulting these third wave cafes for being able to use the technology at their disposal to create a better cup of coffee/business model? It almost sounds like a "back when I was your age, I had to walk 15 miles uphill in the snow to school" kind of fault. Would you clarify?

Stanner wrote:I'm not sure if I'm understanding your point: are you faulting these third wave cafes for being able to use the technology at their disposal to create a better cup of coffee/business model? It almost sounds like a "back when I was your age, I had to walk 15 miles uphill in the snow to school" kind of fault. Would you clarify?

No, not at all. I am just saying that with these small entrepreneur coffee houses, now as well as decades ago, they made the best cup of java they could given the available information and technology. It was the business model that led things to go the way they did with Starbucks, and I don't see anything different at all about the business model for the so-called Third Wave coffee houses.

As fun as it is to debate this stuff, let's not let it detract from the actual point of the thread, that the movie "The Perfect Cappuccino" is a fun and entertaining look at our favorite beverage. Minor quibbles aside, I really enjoyed the film, and after all how many films about espresso come out each year? If you missed it in the theater, you can pick up a copy of the DVD here for a decent price and support the filmmaker's next project.

Not trying to be argumentative or quibble; people have more experience than I do at this and I wanted to make sure I understood.

Almost two years ago, I briefly noted the progress of this movie in the thread The Perfect Cappuccino - a documentary film. Now that it's available on DVD, I want to bring closure to that thread by adding my capsule summary of the movie and a few comments about the movie itself.

In short, I found it an enjoyable and thought-provoking film about the culture of coffee, cafe culture, and American consumerism. Those who are "into" coffee will relate to many points the film makes; those who are not as "into" coffee will better understand their loves ones who are!