What is a Flat White? Isn't it just a Latte? Starbucks UK has introduced Flat White to the menu. Two shots of espresso top up with full-fat milk and foam with latte art on top in a 10 oz china cup costing £2.20 each. I've done some research and it seems to me that Flat White is basically a Cafe Latte and funny enough inside Starbucks Flat White training documents, the technique is called Latte Art. Why else would you call it Latte Art if the drink is not a latte?

Difference between a flat white and a latte' is that a FW is pretty much all steamed milk with the espresso, with just a little bit of foam on top. Latte's have a 1cm or so foam top.

Starbucks in the UK is merely catching up with what the independents have been serving for a while now. It is an Australian 'invention' which has become popular here in the UK, particularly in London where a number of Antipodean-inspired espresso cafes have popped up.

Personally I dont see the point of FW's. Nothing against Antipodeans - I am one myself - but just how much milk does one need with what is already a superb shot...oh thats right, Starbucks espresso is a little, ahem, different.

Flat whites are supposed to be small 5-6 oz. drinks made from a shot or two of espresso and steamed milk. They differ from lattés primarily in volume and from cappuccinos primarily in their less foamed texture. They're also by definition (as far as I can tell) sold in a small ceramic cup, i.e. they are not supposed to be to go drinks in paper cups.

If Starbucks has taken the term and applied it to large milky drinks—their forté—then of course the meaning is lost, and they're just trying to fake trendiness.

As to latté art, it's a generic term and you can pour it in any drink that physically supports it--macchiatos, mochas, cappuccinos, hot chocolates/steamers/whatever you call chocolate sauce + steamed milk, etc. So it's not a misnomer to call it latté art on a flat white. There's still a difference, though it's hidden by Starbucks' (and any other café that sells cappuccinos and lattes in 12 oz/16 oz/20 oz sizes) willingness to bastardize just about any espresso-based drink name.

According to James Hoffmann:

James Hoffmann wrote:The flat white is not a magic bullet that can help recover declining coffee sales.

according to wikipedia:

a flat white is a coffee beverage prepared by pouring steamed milk from the bottom of steaming pitcher over a single shot (30ml) of espresso.

Perhaps even more than with other espresso based beverages, the opinions on what constitutes a flat white differ vastly. In my very humble opinion a flat white is latte in a cappuccino size. I.e. roughly 1 oz espresso topped off by 2 oz of milk that is 1 quarter foam and 3 quarters steamed milk. But that's just my view. I'm sure others will disagree.

Br,
Teme

shadowfax wrote: . . . sold in a small ceramic cup, i.e. they are not supposed to be to go drinks in paper cups.

Yeah, but shouldn't that apply to ALL espresso drinks???

Sure, yeah. Certainly my opinion. Most great shops I have been to draw a decent line--i.e. macchiatos and espressos are for here only, cappuccinos/mochas/lattés can be for here or to go. I wouldn't mind keeping cappuccinos as "for here only" as well, but... eh. It's still a good drink in a paper cup, assuming you make it right. At some point you have to restrain your snobbery and make a small compromise to expose more people to your awesome product...

Seriously? I don't give a 5 if you serve my espresso in a paper cup...as long as it's good espresso, it's pulled directly into the cup, and it's not a fraking 12oz cup. A good shot tastes just great in paper. Hell, pull it in a damn snocone cup, a muffin paper, whatever. A good shot is a good shot. /antisnobrant

Nate, I agree that "a good shot is a good shot," but I have found a definite difference in paper versus non-paper cups with espresso. (Milk-based drinks not so much; either that, or I'm used to it.) I have never had a GREAT shot in a paper cup -- it cools off way too fast, for example, and I think it tastes different. (Impossible for me to do a blind tasting, so I cannot state that as fact.) I've recently had espresso in both ceramic and paper from an excellent nearby café, Remedy in Oakland -- to my palate, big difference; same with Blue Bottle in SF.

Just my 2¢; YMMV . . .

Cheers,
Jason

I've had some great shots in paper. But to silence my inner rebel, I'll pull out my little paper shot cups and do a back to back tomorrow.

Seriously, the worst thing to me is pulling shots into those little metal pitchers, then pouring into a cup. I lose my mind when I see that, then kick myself for patronizing an establishment that does that. I can forgive most other stuff, as my expectations are below low, when trying an unknown place.

poison wrote:Seriously, the worst thing to me is pulling shots into those little metal pitchers, then pouring into a cup. I lose my mind when I see that, then kick myself for patronizing an establishment that does that.

Well, I guess I'll never be making you an espresso . . .

Seriously, I keep two of those pitchers in with my cups on top of the machine for they're nice and warm. The only time I use them though is for my teenage daughter who, running late, wants her lattè in a thermally insulated car mug -- you know the type -- and those are too tall to fit under the grouphead, even with a bottomless portafilter . . .

Cheers,
Jason

You could always use those pitchers to steam milk for macchiatos (with lots of practice), but mine seem to get the most use as milk or cream containers for those that want to add it to their coffee or oatmeal. Even though I bought them thinking I'd pull my shots into them and then pour them into my cup, I've never really done that.

Luckily, if I remove the grate from the La Peppina drip tray I can get my Bodum Pavina glass just under the portafilter (angling it just right) when I want to make my Wife a cappuccino.

zin1953 wrote:Well, I guess I'll never be making you an espresso . . .

Seriously, I keep two of those pitchers in with my cups on top of the machine for they're nice and warm. The only time I use them though is for my teenage daughter who, running late, wants her lattè in a thermally insulated car mug -- you know the type -- and those are too tall to fit under the grouphead, even with a bottomless portafilter . . .

Cheers,
Jason

Sure, if you're making a milk drink in a huge cup, it's all good. But shops that buy some stupid machine that won't fit a 12oz cup under the group, or just use bad form and pull into the separate container then pour....

I bought 2 of those little metal pitchers from EPNW. A 2oz, and an 8oz. I also had a few 2oz'ers. The 8oz is good for making machiatto's with a monk's head-esque design(or nothing). The 2oz, I planned on using for making drinks to go, as the travel mug won't fit under the group. Haven't actually used it though(the few times I made a drink in a cup like that, I got lazy and just tilted the cup and wedged it under the PF). Looks professional when you put a couple of the 2oz on the table with Half&Half and Whole Milk when people are over dinner


As to a Flat White... To me, it's a milk drink, but with only steamed(heated) milk. No froth. I dont drink them, so I dont know what the size of the drink would be. Well.. That's not true.. I made one once. And NOW I don't drink them.

Jason.. Was it you who said(in a different thread), that a Long Black and an Americano are similar, and it depends on whether you pull the shot into hot water, or pour hot water over a shot? Ive always thought a "Long Black", and a Cafe Crema, are the same thing(things Superauto's make), and an Americano is Espresso and hot Water. Does the name really change depending on how you mix the two('spro and HW)?

JmanEspresso wrote:Jason.. Was it you who said(in a different thread), that a Long Black and an Americano are similar, and it depends on whether you pull the shot into hot water, or pour hot water over a shot? Ive always thought a "Long Black", and a Cafe Crema, are the same thing(things Superauto's make), and an Americano is Espresso and hot Water. Does the name really change depending on how you mix the two('spro and HW)?

What? Do I really look like an Australian? Hmmm . . . maybe I really do look like Russell Crowe? Or Nicole Kidman?

From the always reliable Wikipedia:
Long Black:

A long black is a style of coffee, most commonly found in New Zealand and Australia, but now becoming available in the UK, predominantly in London. It is made by pulling a double-shot of espresso over hot water (usually the water is also heated by the espresso machine). A long black is similar to an Americano, which is made by adding hot water to espresso shots, but it retains the crema and is less voluminous, therefore more strongly flavoured.

Obviously this differs from a lungo, as well, in that the "extra" water does not pass through the grounds.

Cheers,
Jason