More and more it seems to me as though its not just days out of roast that matters, but also days since the bag of roasted coffee beans was opened that leads to the best espresso. Note that I am not talking here about the beans getting too old for the purposes of this discussion, I am concerned however about them being too fresh.

By this I mean that for a given bean (I tend to drink espresso that has chocolate, caramel, hazelnut as the main flavours), I am often in the following situation:

I will interchangeably open a given bag normally 1-2 weeks out of roast. Usually by this stage the bags will be significantly inflated with gas from the coffee beans. If I then brew a shot straight away after opening the bag, I will notice in a typical shot:

1. Textbook syrupy extraction with tiger striping, no visible channeling etc..
2. Very nice looking shot with great crema color. The crema does tend to be a bit darker than usual, but still a rich rusty golden brown.
3. The flavor of the shot will be terrible. Very bitter. Quite harsh.

If I then wait until the next day, it seems like some kind of extra de-gassing must be occurring in the hopper because I am back to usual. This seems to be repeatable. I am starting this discussion because much of what I read talks about a minimum number of days until you should open a bag and start to brew, but I am wondering if there is also benefit in a middle de-gassing stage of maybe 1-2 days after a sealed bag is opened before using the beans at all?

Anyone?

Thanks for bumping this; I missed it the first time around and it's a great question.

Coffee ages in a variety of ways, the ones I know about are: they lose their CO2 and aromatics; they oxidize; they go through internal chemical changes. Valve bags prevent oxidation; but they do not stop degassing, aroma loss, and internal chemistry.

Degassing and aroma loss are fast processes, done in three to five days. For people like me, hard core home roasters who aren't into espresso porn; the coffee is stale by the end of that -- no more massive aroma hits.

If you're into espresso porn, fresh beans are terrible, since they don't make for pretty pours and gooey mouthfeel. So you'll think the coffee is too fresh until its completely degassed.

In a valve bag, the coffee doesn't get stale through internal chemistry until about 4 to 8 weeks in. After that, there's no crema, very little mouthfeel, and increasing amounts of woody/dusty tastes.

In "specialty coffee" countries, oxidation is a big no-no that's thought to ruin the coffee even in the smallest amounts. But in Italy, letting the coffee stand and oxidize a little is supposed to make them smother and mellower. I've found that this is true for harsh tasting coffees; they profit from standing ground for a half hour to an hour. A day or two in the hopper may do the same thing.

It used to be that harsh tastes was a thing with inexpensive coffees only; but now, with everyone pushing the envelope with faster and lighter roasts; it's become more frequent in high end coffee as well. Maybe all those old Italian tricks -- letting the coffee stand around ground, letting the first few drops of the each shot go into the drip tray -- need to be revived for third wave roasts. We've already revived letting them stale a few weeks, so why not all the other tricks too?

Lovely comment

another_jim wrote:Thanks for bumping this; I missed it the first time around and it's a great question.

Coffee ages in a variety of ways, the ones I know about are: they lose their CO2 and aromatics; they oxidize; they go through internal chemical changes. Valve bags prevent oxidation; but they do not stop degassing, aroma loss, and internal chemistry.

Degassing and aroma loss are fast processes, done in three to five days. For people like me, hard core home roasters who aren't into espresso porn; the coffee is stale by the end of that -- no more massive aroma hits.

If you're into espresso porn, fresh beans are terrible, since they don't make for pretty pours and gooey mouthfeel. So you'll think the coffee is too fresh until its completely degassed.

In a valve bag, the coffee doesn't get stale through internal chemistry until about 4 to 8 weeks in. After that, there's no crema, very little mouthfeel, and increasing amounts of woody/dusty tastes.

In "specialty coffee" countries, oxidation is a big no-no that's thought to ruin the coffee even in the smallest amounts. But in Italy, letting the coffee stand and oxidize a little is supposed to make them smother and mellower. I've found that this is true for harsh tasting coffees; they profit from standing ground for a half hour to an hour. A day or two in the hopper may do the same thing.

It used to be that harsh tastes was a thing with inexpensive coffees only; but now, with everyone pushing the envelope with faster and lighter roasts; it's become more frequent in high end coffee as well. Maybe all those old Italian tricks -- letting the coffee stand around ground, letting the first few drops of the each shot go into the drip tray -- need to be revived for third wave roasts. We've already revived letting them stale a few weeks, so why not all the other tricks too?

Jim, based on all of this, when do you prefer your espresso post roast typically?

Sounds like for brewed coffee you like it asap..

All of this is interesting in that I just saw something by Wendelboe yesterday stating their coffees aren't good until about 7 days post roast... maybe it's the lighter roasts?

This may really come into play with coffees that have been flushed with an inert gas like Nitrogen when packaging where the coffee can taste fresh and pull well right after opening the bag, even several months or more from when the coffee was roasted but the coffee will stale rapidly in subsequent days. This works well in a cafe setting where you can use the entire contents of the container in one day, but can be a challenge to the home barista. See the following thread for discussions around this topic.

Italian Coffees. Lets talk about Kimbo, Danesi, Lavazza, Caffe motta, Illy

RyanJE wrote:Jim, ... Sounds like for brewed coffee you like it asap..All of this is interesting in that I just saw something by Wendelboe yesterday stating their coffees aren't good until about 7 days post roast... maybe it's the lighter roasts?

The dry fragrance of the grounds straight out of the grinder can be a big deal for home coffee drinkers; and it can't for people in cafes.

We live in a media age, and media are visual, no smells or tastes; this has greatly intensified with the web, so that now we are getting the bulk of both our information and interactions virtually. This may be leading to a decay in taste, not a growth. Sometimes, when I'm in a bad mood I thinks this: High end food is now about fancy plating; high end coffee is now about fancy pouring. Both are now about fancy backstories -- green, organic, and with awesomely authentic farming practices. The taste? As long as it's sweet and can be called "complex," who now gives a sh*t?

True story! For me unfortunately, I can't learn in a group setting since there isnt squat for great coffee close by. Let alone somewhere doing tastings or cupping.

Stuck with this virtual learning media stuff.

another_jim wrote:The dry fragrance of the grounds straight out of the grinder can be a big deal for home coffee drinkers; and it can't for people in cafes.

One of the best things about my farmers market coffee stand (and hopefully the soon-to-be coffee bar) is that I get to grind coffee 1-3 days off the roast right in front of my customers and then hand them the bin to smell before I begin the pour. For me, smelling the fresh grounds is a huge part of the coffee experience and one I want to share with as many people as will allow me. I also offer pre-brewed quick cups from my Fetco (which probably tastes better), but the vast majority of return customers choose to wait, watch me grind, smell the dry and the wet and then take their cup and do whatever they normally do to it. It's a very connecting experience.

Almico wrote:One of the best things about my farmers market coffee stand (and hopefully the soon-to-be coffee bar) is that I get to grind coffee 1-3 days off the roast right in front of my customers and then hand them the bin to smell before I begin the pour ... It's a very connecting experience.

That is very cool; I hope you get imitated on this.