Roeland, I am sorry if I have personally offended you. I do not think this needs to continue.

Wow. Marshall, I think you are right...

It's usually best to keep political views out of forums like this. They unnecessarily antagonize people. I have no idea what the politics of most of the regular posters here are, and that is probably a good thing.

I actually like to discuss politics but it really seems out of place at HB. There are plenty enough things we can debate within the confines of coffee world isn't there? Tubed vs Solid State gear, Nikon vs Canon, Campy vs Shimano, and so on.

Back to TonyJ's rant on Ritual....He should be able to express his opinions about his experience there without getting slammed. As long as the rant is fair and something that he would be willing to discuss with the owner. I think it goes without saying (even though I'm saying it) that different people are going to experience different things. Walking into a coffee shop is not a controlled experiment by any means.

That is all.

Wow, this is an interesting off topic post. It's amazing how close under the skin politics lie, how easily it manifests in fear/anger. It's easy to see how lack of tolerance and misperception lead to tragedies such as Rwanda, Bosnia, Iraq and the like where neighbours turn on neighbours in a blink. I see this in myself sometimes and I take a step back and reconsider my humanity.
Tony (and all other interested parties) if your looking for well roasted 'manly' coffees that'll put hair on your daughters chest and zip in your nutsack, come visit us up here in Vancouver. We have all sorts of well roasted coffees to choose from. More shades of black than you probably thought existed.
Me, I look forward to my next trip to SF for a taste of lemonade. I love what is generally being done with coffee between LA and Seattle. Variety is what makes this hobby so fascinating, no. If we all dressed in black shirts and pants wouldn't that be a little dull.
-Ian

noah wrote:The larger issue here, if there is one, is that capitalism always works out these issues, if they are indeed issues.

I agree. But the most important thing about individual choice is that it removes the matter from politics. For instance, we can all go to any church, synagogue, mosque, ashram, etc, we please without getting thrown in jail.

But the since 60s radicalism, we've put a new spin on individual choice -- being a radical/revolutionary/political activist as a "lifestyle," i.e. as a matter of individual choice. In the 60's, the New Left drove the old one crazy by insisting Levis and revolution went together, and never really getting the point that major political change always means compelling or killing anyone who disagrees; and doing without all the things those people used to produce.

Lifestyle radicalism is now well ensconced both on the left and the right, and I'm regularly told by people from both sides how offensive I am. I suppose it's a lot better than being shot by them, but I'm worried that some of these folks may be losing their grasp on the difference. So I'm just hoping that all the people getting their kicks from finding offense don't graduate to the harder stuff.

I don't think the crazies are coming for you just yet Jim. It seems our OP, on the other hand, may already have put himself on the proverbial enemies list.

My grandmother used to say, "there are three things you don't talk about in polite society: bodily functions, religion and politics."

This thread is proof yet again that one should respect the wisdom of the elders.

atao wrote:the times Chris Baca has been there, he's been awesome: really pleasant, wanting to talk about the coffee, really great. whoever has a chance to visit Ritual, i hope you run into him there.

No chance, at least not behind the bar. He works at Verve now.

Best,
David