Explanation of "3rd wave"? And what were the first two? - Page 2

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Alan Frew
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#11: Post by Alan Frew »

Nick wrote:More commonly, it's one of those terms that certain people out there seem eager to discredit in order to make it look like they're somehow more insightful than they actually are. a.k.a. "player haters"


Simply put:
1st wave = coffee to consume (freeze-dried, commodity, lots of cream & sugar, 'acquired taste,' morning pick-me-up, etc.)
2nd wave = coffee to enjoy (espresso-drinks, beginning to identify and prefer certain coffee regions, frappuccino, flavored lattes, etc.)
3rd wave = coffee to appreciate (like wine/music/art appreciation, terroir, desire for seed-to-cup knowledge, etc.)

It's an oversimplification to be sure, but point is, folks are approaching coffee in a deeper way than before, and there are certain times when it's helpful to distinguish the different approaches.
According to this definition, I've been doing 3rd Wave coffee for 25 years, but until the term popped up on Coffeegeek a few years ago I'd never heard of it, and have subsequently never found a need to use it. I'm quite sure only a vanishingly small percentage of my customers would know what I was talking about if I did.

Alan

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bernie
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#12: Post by bernie replying to Alan Frew »

Hey! We started at the same time. If someone comes into my shop and asks about third wave I'm thinkin' of someone who had too much to drink and is in the bathroom waiting for the "third wave". Just me and the Luddites.

Bernie

Alan Frew
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#13: Post by Alan Frew »

Hey! We started at the same time.
Yeah, last month was our 25th Anniversary. http://www.coffeeco.com.au/newsletter/july2010.html .

Alan

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RapidCoffee
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#14: Post by RapidCoffee »

Congratulations, Alan! You have much to be proud of.
John

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Marshall
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#15: Post by Marshall »

"Third wave coffee" is useful as a descriptive term to the extent it expresses an idea in the speaker or writer's mind that is understood by his or her intended audience. The fact that 5,000 tourists a day walk through the Piazza d'Italia in New Orleans without knowing it is a milestone of "post-modern architecture," does not make the term any less useful to architects and historians of architecture who write for people who are interested in the subject.

I think "third wave coffee" offends many people, mainly because it implicitly dismisses a great number of important older figures in the specialty coffee movement who spent a lifetime improving the cup.

To my mind, the term can be useful and is commonly understood in much of the coffee community to have a much less descriptive meaning than Nick's definition. I suggest, instead, the term's meaning is brand-specific and is used to distinguish canned mass-market coffee from large chain coffee shops and, in turn, the large chain coffee shops from the independent and micro-chain roasters and retailers that are most frequently described in admiring terms on aficionado websites like Home-barista.
Marshall
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Mark08859 (original poster)
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#16: Post by Mark08859 (original poster) »

Ken Fox wrote:This is the classic straw man argument; I never said anything remotely like this.

But "Third Wave" is a term of conceit, a self-flattering term developed by those who would promote that what they are doing is truly unique and special. It isn't, with the possible exception of going to origin and promoting the production of special coffees (which is truly peripheral to the idea of a "Third Wave Cafe").

Some of this is the misguided approach of some, to try to turn the idea of the job of Barista as being a true "career path," outside of Italy. The only way that being a barista could be a real lifetime job is if the barista owns the cafe. Of course, that is what they do in Italy.

My whole approach is just the opposite. I try not to hide behind specialized terminology that other people don't understand. Of course, if you don't know the name for the basic parts of an espresso machine then you are on your own. Some terminology is necessary.

ken
What brought forth my post was something an individual stated on another coffee forum. He described himself as a "3rd wave barista".

bernie
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#17: Post by bernie »

Marshall wrote: snips

I think "third wave coffee" offends many people, mainly because it implicitly dismisses a great number of important older figures in the specialty coffee movement who spent a lifetime improving the cup.

snips.
I think it offends many people in part because it brings to mind a lot of elements of today's specialty coffee scene that has much to do with flavored syrups, competitive shot-pulling, questionable sustainability claims, questionable "green" claims, dubious "new and improved" machine features, and endless futzing with the minutia of preparing a simple, elegant cup of coffee. If one were to just read the boards and attend the conferences, they might get the impression that the whole of coffeedom really thinks a machine that holds a boiler temperature to within 3/10ths of a degree is a significant element in good coffee. Or that a barista championship series that features flaming cognac-laced organic, fairtrade, bird-friendly, shade-grown, sustainable, relationship espresso is a standard of the industry. I, for one, have never understood the value of food fights, competitive eating or kitchen wars. I'm finding the breathless and never-ending quest to have the newest, most innovative, "deepest", most "passionate about coffee" ad nauseum coffeehouses to be tiresome, repetitive and pedantic. But, that's probably because I'm still an old crank that thinks there's a point at which substance is lost and B.S. begins in any endeavor.

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frankmoss
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#18: Post by frankmoss »

Marshall wrote:"Third wave coffee" is useful as a descriptive term to the extent it expresses an idea in the speaker or writer's mind that is understood by his or her intended audience. The fact that 5,000 tourists a day walk through the Piazza d'Italia in New Orleans without knowing it is a milestone of "post-modern architecture," does not make the term any less useful to architects and historians of architecture who write for people who are interested in the subject.
You said it perfectly. It's a useful term for describing the history and progression of coffee in the US, even if it is misused or used arrogantly. Of course there will be exceptions, but it's a valid generalization. The architecture analogy is a very good one.

FWIW, I don't think I've ever used the term 3rd wave to describe myself or a coffee shop, and I don't plan to.

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Psyd
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#19: Post by Psyd »

Ken Fox wrote:
But "Third Wave" is a term of conceit, a self-flattering term developed by those who would promote that what they are doing is truly unique and special.
Hey, no it isn't.

It's a danged useful descriptive term, that, as you suggested, could very well be replaced by any number of short sentences that describe what we all understand the reference to men.
But, with the exception of those haughtier-than-thous that are just too special to be caught up in the new-cool-hip rap of the new-cool-hip-kids-making-coffee types, it's become a part of the lexicon that some of us find a useful tool.
Methinks the lady doth protest too much...
Cheez, guys, it's a simple short term used to describe a thinking abut coffee. 'Conceit', self-flattering', and 'haughty'? I dunno, 'offensive'? I guess, if you're overly sensitive (BTW, the beginning of the 'third wave' doesn't mean that no one was interested in making really decent coffee before it, but that the public at large were becoming aware of it).
'Meaningless'? I think that the very fact that a very large number of people use the term as a communication tool discounts that on it's face. It's a simple phrase that folks int the coffee industry use to communicate, and it's useful to those that use it outside of the poser fashion that's been mentioned here.
But to excommunicate a word from the lexicon because it's abused by charlatans is to allow charlatans to design your lexicon. Hate the player, not the game.
I already mentioned the bathwater thing, right?
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Ken Fox
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#20: Post by Ken Fox »

Psyd wrote:Hey, no it isn't.

'Meaningless'? I think that the very fact that a very large number of people use the term as a communication tool discounts that on it's face. It's a simple phrase that folks int the coffee industry use to communicate, and it's useful to those that use it outside of the poser fashion that's been mentioned here.
But to excommunicate a word from the lexicon because it's abused by charlatans is to allow charlatans to design your lexicon. Hate the player, not the game.
I already mentioned the bathwater thing, right?
Define "large number of people." My impression is that the term is used only by people in the industry and a few home user wannabees. The industry people using it are people who would describe themselves as being in this category. Most of these people (the wannabee home user-hanger-oners, and the ones in the industry), would merit the term "self-important," in addition, perhaps, to Third Waver.

It's as if I decided to create a term to describe myself, that combined what I thought were my best qualities (say, "intelligent," "good looking," and "sophistocated"). I could create a term for that, maybe "Renaissance Man," for example, then start talking up the idea of Renaissance Men. Your reaction might be to then accuse me of self-promotion, or worse.



ken
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