another_jim wrote:I'm a little surprised by the question. What I mean is this: how many people here deal with the actual barista?

I do but only at the home shop to hang out and chat with the baristas -- so it's not really relevant to this thread as they never have attitude problems that I've seen.

Espin wrote:I'm probably a curmudgeon and a misanthrope; but these two incidents are what I considered "bad attitude". I don't want excessive cheerfulness; I don't want a heart on top*; I don't want to talk in a special code; I don't want an unsolicited lesson. I just want what I ordered, and to go about my day. The shops that focus less on engaging, a little more anonymous get my business. I want to deal with a courteous professional; I don't want to rent a friend.

You can remove the probably from your assertion of misanthropy and curmudgeon status. You qualify on both counts.
The code-talkers, I agree with. Unless it is some sort of helpful descriptor ("We only have skim, two percent, and whole, but if you ask for it, we can mix the two to get something like one percent for you") for ordering, and you're there for at least the second time, you have a valid bitch.
Perkiness? Yeah, you're probably right, that's too much for early in the morning. But that's your issue, not the barista's. And the heart. Really? You find latte art in the shape of a heart an example of bad barista attitude? This is again, your issue. Latte art is an expression of passion for the job, the coffee, customer service and appreciation, and to some extend, maybe life itself. It is *not* an expression of love, or of lust, for you personally.
There are many reasons to hate the actions of a particular barista, and rude takes the prize. I seriously want to cut down on the reasons to hate them that are positive things, for all but the most curmudgeonly few.

Espin wrote:I'm probably a curmudgeon and a misanthrope; but these two incidents are what I considered "bad attitude". I don't want excessive cheerfulness; I don't want a heart on top*; I don't want to talk in a special code; I don't want an unsolicited lesson. I just want what I ordered, and to go about my day. The shops that focus less on engaging, a little more anonymous get my business. I want to deal with a courteous professional; I don't want to rent a friend.

Getting mad about a barista being too cheerful or pouring latte art is beyond being a curmudgeon and misanthrope. It's just plain weird. And not in a good way.

+1

Espin wrote:I'm probably a curmudgeon and a misanthrope; but these two incidents are what I considered "bad attitude". I don't want excessive cheerfulness; I don't want a heart on top*; I don't want to talk in a special code; I don't want an unsolicited lesson. I just want what I ordered, and to go about my day. The shops that focus less on engaging, a little more anonymous get my business. I want to deal with a courteous professional; I don't want to rent a friend.

Bob_McBob wrote:Getting mad about a barista being too cheerful or pouring latte art is beyond being a curmudgeon and misanthrope. It's just plain weird. And not in a good way.

I don't think that Espin's attitude is the least bit weird. It's a perfectly valid and reasonable viewpoint. It is however probably in the minority in North America, so shops are unlikely to desist in encouraging employees to engage customers. However, in many countries e.g. much of Scandinavia, Switzerland, Lichtenstein, etc the norm is professional and friendly, but reserved service much along the lines of what Espin was describing as desirable.

It's a matter of how much familiarity or personal space is desirable and this varies from country to country, culture to culture and even amongst people e.g. extroverts vs. introverts. I have to say that I find it refreshing when I am in Europe. I probably don't mind cheerful employees trying to be engaging as much as Espin, but occasionally it just goes too far and employees are just too familiar with perfect strangers. When it goes that far, it's almost campy or smarmy and in those situations, I find myself in total agreement with his position.

To be clear, the barista he's complaining about was too cheerful in the morning, smiled at him, and poured some latte art in his drink. He doesn't seem to have a problem with all latte art, just hearts. Pro-tip: if a barista pours a heart on your drink, it doesn't have inappropriate sexual connotations, it's simply one of the only designs that can be quickly poured and look aesthetically pleasing. If you can't separate the two concepts, then you should probably ask the barista to pour something else up-front in case you get offended when your drink arrives.

If you have a problem with baristas being friendly and engaging, then you probably have a problem with most of the service industry in North America. I agree some people go overboard, but it's well beyond being too cheerful. I don't expect wait staff in France to act like wait staff in North America, just like I don't expect baristas in North America to act like baristas in Europe.

I don't think friendly service is just a North American habit. At our roundtable this week, there was an Italian barista of 15 years experience. He said a good Italian barista became like family with his customers and knew what was going on in their lives. In his experience, with so many bars to choose from and the coffees so comparable, many Italians chose their coffee bar by whose baristas made them feel most welcome.

Marshall wrote:In his experience, with so many bars to choose from and the coffees so comparable, many Italians chose their coffee bar by whose baristas made them feel most welcome.

In Europe, such experience develops over time, many months. I was shocked when I first heard people in USA blabbing really personal details to perfect strangers they saw for the first time. In Europe that is very uncommon. Nothing wrong with either, just different cultures.

Marshall, your point about Italians choosing espresso bars that they are most comfortable in is a good one. Espin was just describing the type of espresso bar atmosphere that he would be most comfortable in. I don't think that anyone, including Espin was begrudging friendly service, which is surely to be found in most countries. The main issue was one of familiarity. Some people like retail employees who are immediately chummy, chatty and personal with them. And some do not, finding it uncomfortable with strangers being that familiar. Neither viewpoint is wrong, I only took issue with the pejorative characterization of the latter as weird or unfathomable. I tried to make the point that it is readily observable that the norm for familiarity with strangers varies from country-country and then suggested that it was reasonable that there would also be a continuum of preferences among people in the same city. Chris said that he has sometimes seen staff go overboard. So how Chris might feel if the barista went overboard is surely similar to how Espin felt in the situation he described. The only difference is two different comfort thresholds for familiarity.

If you've done much traveling you can see stark differences between say Switzerland, Germany, Scandinavia on one end and perhaps Brazil, Spain, & Italy on the other. Or if that doesn't help, imagine a business meeting with a new client, perhaps an older, distinguished Japanese gentleman who gives the impression of being formal and reserved. Would you treat him the same way as your extroverted, best friend of twenty years? Or would you think that a bit more formality and less familiarity would be appropriate? Well, some people have similar preferences of strangers in retail settings.

wookie wrote: I don't think that anyone, including Espin was begrudging friendly service,

TO be clear, I was *not* suggesting that there was anything wrong with his preference for less perky, less friendly staff. Just that his characterization of that behaviour as a bad thing was probably a step too far.

Some people like it sunny, some love the rain. For the sunshine fans to suggest that rain is wrong, is, well, a step too far.

There is a fine line between having a preference and not being able to distinguish those with different preferences from 'bad' people. And far too few people on the interwebs recognise that nowadays. Heck, far too few anywhere!