I'm not going to argue with you. Shop owners I know think is bad form. If you're willing to ask the shop owner & he's cool with it, fine. If you're not willing to ask about it why not?

pdx wrote:I'm not going to argue with you. Shop owners I know think is bad form. If you're willing to ask the shop owner & he's cool with it, fine. If you're not willing to ask about it why not?

Because there is a simple rule - they put out a thermos for you to use to put milk in your coffee. Personally, most of the time I use no milk at all, sometimes I use more than average even if not a "ghetto latte" amount. Some people don't use any, some use less than average, some use more - beverages are priced including milk, whether it's more than average or less. That's the rule, there is nothing to ask about - why would you offer someone more money for a product you've already paid for in full? If you pull up to a gas station and put air in the tires while you're there, do you ask the gas station attendant if you should pay him an extra $20 to air up all 4 tires instead of just 2? Why not - you're using more than average! Are you cheating by doing this? How about grabbing a bunch of paper towels if you've just had a spill - do you run in and offer to pay for them? Of course not - the station establishes the rule by offering free air to gas customers, etc., without telling you how many tires you're allowed to air before you should pay extra, and this is no different. You have paid for milk in your coffee, some people use more, some less (or like me, sometimes more, sometimes less), and anyone who thinks it's "bad form" to use more than average can easily change the rule - if they don't, they shouldn't complain about people following it, and you certainly shouldn't accuse someone of being dishonest for following it, IMHO. Peace.

I agree with Ben, but...

Jim has a point, and in order to counteract this, many shops do not put out cream, they either add it themselves, or provide a small amount to go with the drink if requested.

Nick and I share a lot of the same ideals in terms of quality. I don't always agree with his methods, but I completely understand why he does what he does.

Look at it from this perspective. You spend several years honing your craft, you source beans from a roaster who has spent many years honing their craft, who sources from farmers who spend many years...
When the entire premise of your shop is to extend the quality through the entire chain and end up in the cup, this is vastly different from 90+ percent of most coffeeshops out there. So to equate how Nick should respond to X is not the same as how "Joe Coffee" should respond to X. It's a different paradigm. Good customer service begins with following through with the quality you have promised. Tactics of how to do that may be another conversation.

Nick isn't appealing to the "everyman" and the response from many is the "everyman" response. While Nick would love to have everyone line up and genuflect at his espresso altar, it just isn't reasonable to expect that. Some people come to appreciate and enjoy what Murky is offering, others are willing to step outside of their comfort zone and experience a coffee revelation, and unfortunately there are those who will never "get it". Nick will never please everyone, but for those he is there to please, he will go above and beyond.

Stand up guy? Yes.
Good Barista? Yes.
Opinionated dumba**? Probably.

My cent.

LOL...

JimWright wrote:On the other hand, Dan, since when did putting a lot of milk in a drink qualify as a cheat?

It depends on how you define "a lot." I don't own a shop, but from what I've read, some customers add milk/half-n-half to the point it approaches latte volumes (hence the term "ghetto latte"). I understand the owner's ire in this case; milk isn't cheap and half-n-half is outright expensive.

Greetings

After reading the opening page on the link below, especially the last paragraph, I think Murky Coffee needs a better public relations agency.

http://www.murkycoffee.com

JimWright wrote:Because there is a simple rule - they put out a thermos for you to use to put milk in your coffee.

Most shops will contain the abuse by leaving you just enough room for what they believe is a 'reasonable' amount of milk or half and half. They will also charge you extra for a 12 oz drink in a sixteen oz cup, because they know that you are going to add the four ounces of half & half. They also refuse to pour four to six ounces of espresso over ice in a twelve ounce cup so that you can go get six ounces of h&h, and hope that you aren't a bit of a freakout over it, especially since they posted it right where you can't miss it that that is their policy. If the guy had not gotten immediately angry, he might have gotten some really good advice, as I did when I was 'refused' at murky.
If you truly don't think that they look at the milk abuse as theft, try bringing a twelve ounce mug to your local coffee shop and buy a small pastry. Proceed to fill your mug with fresh, wholesome milk, and wait for the cops.
Hey, there is nothing keeping you from getting twelve copies of the newspaper from the local machine, is there? Nothing except your own sense of right and wrong. Some of us still remember what that feels like, and understand that there are some rules that shouldn't need to be written, and those are the ones that let us deal with one another with respect. Once we start to ignore those, we have to write down everything, and lock up everyting else.
Izzat where you want to live? Not me...

I'd think that someone who lists a GS/3 in their equipment list would be willing to pay a little extra when they want to use more of the half and half than would typically be considered reasonable.

Mike

I call BS Chris. Here is the Starbucks response to the issue: http://starbucksgossip.typepad.co...arbucks_weigh.html

Do they look at "milk abuse" as theft? First of all, as per above, for many of them, the answer is no, and second of all, when you put it as "milk abuse" to begin with, you completely prejudge the answer to the question! If you ask "is it wrong to steal," of course the answer is yes, because you asked the question so as to make the conclusion inescapable! But here, you're assuming that it's stealing to use something you've paid for!

And again, you're not the first, but you use a completely specious analogy - there is a HUGE difference between paying for one copy of a paper and taking more than one, which is illegal and stealing, plain and simple, by any definition, whether you get away with it or not, or filling a thermos with milk after paying for a pastry (milk you didn't pay for), and paying for coffee including milk and using more milk than average.

I've said my peace on this and don't think there's anything to be gained by continuing to argue, especially with repeated flagrantly incomparable examples.

It's apparent there are some among the coffee community who differ (and I seriously doubt many of these people apply similar standards to themselves when at a gas station, buffet, or anywhere else...), but IMHO, it is by no means cheating or stealing, legally, morally, or otherwise, for people to put milk in their coffee when the business puts out a pitcher of milk for use with coffee they paid for and allows them to use as much as they like in their coffee. If a coffee shop wants to limit milk use, they are free to do so, and if they choose not to, for you to say that someone who takes more than you, personally, might use, is stealing, is ridiculous.

EDIT: And Mike (apparently posted while I was composing this) - you miss the point and are needlessly personal about it. My own use is nothing like what a "ghetto latte" apparently is and doesn't rise to the level that I think most people, if anyone, would question it, and in any case whether I spend a ton of money on coffee and equipment is irrelevant (though the places I go certainly make a lot of money on me and are more than welcoming). The point is that if complying with the rules that the cafe sets out, someone's use is reasonable. If you start off assuming unreasonability, then of course, someone should compensate for that, but that's an assumption that the people who put what you think is too much milk in their coffee are probably unwilling to cede.

The link you provided was as unsettled on the matter as we are! You know, except for the Starbucks fat cats. But I've never really suggested that we use their opinions for what is right, or what is even good.
My examples went straight to the issue we were discussing; the possibility that Nick's policy on no espresso over ice (although, I'm convinced that this is not the case) is motivated by wanting to reduce the 'ghetto-latte' practice. This would be his attempt to limit the practice.
My point is that if folks see it as free milk, or a free way to make what would normally be a more expensive drink, that makes policies like bathroom keys chained to large automotive parts a reality. The milk is there to augment a coffee, not to make a completely other drink. One which, had it been made behind the counter, would be a more expensive drink. That would differentiate it from 'using more milk than average.' I'm guessing that if half the cup is filled with 'condiments' then the spirit of the condiment bar has been violated.
There are certain things that are done because they are right and because they show respect for others. You either understand that or no amount of explanation will clear it up for you. These are the folk that make the signs and the chains a requirement. And life a little less glorious for the rest of us.
And there is a mile long list of rationalizations for it, starting with "I didn't see a sign that says that I can't", and wrapping up somewhere around, "Well, there actually isn't a law that says that."