Quick introduction and some serious pourover questions...

Coffee preparation techniques besides espresso like pourover.
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jesse
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#1: Post by jesse »

So I've been experimenting with pour-over - albeit intermittently - for better than a year now. Having a hard time isolating variables.

I use a v60. Had been buying nice single origins from local 3rd wave bars, but it got too expensive, especially with all the experimentation, so I've taken to Whole Food's Kenyan (light roast). I get it for 10/lb.

Kind of settled on Tonx's method (detailed here http://prima-coffee.com/blog/v60-brewmethod-review) and had been having some luck.

Here's the thing: when I nail it, it's incredible. Even with this pretty average coffee. Floral up front, followed by a pronounced citrus character, finishing with an acidity that hits the back of the tongue. The complexity reveals itself in distinct layers. If I'm going to spend the energy, time, finances etc to dabble in manual drip coffee, it has to be consistently this good.

The problem is, more often than not, I get a sub-par result. It's totally palatable, mind, but also totally one dimensional. There is the general sense of some earthiness mixed in with some acidity. It's all muddled. No clarity or focus.

Do people tailor the variables in accordance with certain characteristics they're trying to coax out of a roast? I mean, there can be no objectively "best" way to brew any given coffee, right? The idea of just using a single method for every bean, roast etc seems reductionist to the point of absurdity. Is there a book that outlines the science behind all this? The variables etc?

Could it be the coffee? I was getting more consistent results with the good stuff, if I recall.

I am absolutely meticulous with the process and have all the requisite gear, before anyone asks, by the way.

Thanks in advance for any insight.

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NoStream
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#2: Post by NoStream »

I'd suggest that the correct parameters for a brewed coffee are not all that complicated, and not that variable depending on different coffees. Depending on your grinder quality, you'll want to extract 18-24%, as evenly as possible. You'll also want to extract more / more aggressively from lighter roasted coffees, since they're less extractable (cell structure more intact) and have less undesirable compounds (distillates, quinic acid). I've brewed lots of V60's and get the best results from a low pour and maintain method, but the Tonx method is very solid and super repeatable, for a V60 prep, anyway.

The V60's a particularly trouble-prone brew prep since flow rate is so rapid and proper extraction requires you to use both the bottom and sides. I'd recommend using a less skill-intensive brew prep like my personal favorite, the Wave 155. You can tweak it, but producing a bad cup requires effort. I do a v60-like grind, 203 F, 1:17, 2:45 pour, 3:30 drain and extract around 23%. But you'll want a lower number for darker-roasted (I prefer light and ultra-light roasts) or lower quality grinders (anything less modal than a bulk grinder).

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jesse (original poster)
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#3: Post by jesse (original poster) »

Now see, I have the Wave, and while the good cups are certainly more consistent, I never extracted anything mind-blowing from it. Also, the filters are a deal-breaker for me. Accidentally set them in a high-traffic kitchen area once and an entire ten dollar stack of them got smashed and thus rendered useless. I commute every weekend, too, and don't want to always have to worry about their safety etc. so it's just not a practical solution.

Taking into consideration my OCD-like tendencies regarding preparation, I'm really just puzzled as to why every 20th cup is life changing, the rest merely pedestrian. Really beginning to think it's the coffee, which, again, is Whole Food's Kenyan.. It's as if the roasting is inconsistent. If I tasted an average cup of it blindly against one of the great ones, I'd probably say one was a light roast, one damn near medium.

Or maybe it's the grinder? A Hario hand-mill.

Of course, I'm totally willing to accept that I'm botching the process somewhere along the way, but given how exacting I am in execution, it seems less likely.

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Marshall
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#4: Post by Marshall »

Brewing with modern pourover devices is a craft. That's why there is a competition for it: http://www.worldbrewerscup.org/.

Most professional baristas haven't mastered it either, which is why it tends to be hit or miss in so many shops. I don't have the patience or skill for it, which is why I prefer infusion/drip brewers like the Bonavita or Clever.
Marshall
Los Angeles

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NoStream
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#5: Post by NoStream »

jesse wrote:Now see, I have the Wave, and while the good cups are certainly more consistent, I never extracted anything mind-blowing from it. Also, the filters are a deal-breaker for me. Accidentally set them in a high-traffic kitchen area once and an entire ten dollar stack of them got smashed and thus rendered useless. I commute every weekend, too, and don't want to always have to worry about their safety etc. so it's just not a practical solution.

Taking into consideration my OCD-like tendencies regarding preparation, I'm really just puzzled as to why every 20th cup is life changing, the rest merely pedestrian. Really beginning to think it's the coffee, which, again, is Whole Food's Kenyan.. It's as if the roasting is inconsistent. If I tasted an average cup of it blindly against one of the great ones, I'd probably say one was a light roast, one damn near medium.

Or maybe it's the grinder? A Hario hand-mill.

Of course, I'm totally willing to accept that I'm botching the process somewhere along the way, but given how exacting I am in execution, it seems less likely.
I would look into tweaking your Wave technique. Make sure your water's hot enough, grind is fine enough, it's taking around 3:30 total, and so on. The paper filters are indeed a pain.

I do find V60 inconsistent relative to other preps. I think most other people do as well, and while I think my V60s are regularly quite good, there's plenty of margin to screw up. Some things that I often see messed up with V60s are inconsistent pour technique (typically too fast), over- or inconsistent agitation, overly fast drain (I would suggest at least 2:40, with the best results around 3:00 or a little longer), pouring on the edge of the filter. I find the V60-01 slightly easier to use than the 02, although it won't let you use Tonx's single-fill technique.

I'm really not convinced that there's anything magical about the V60 or that it's any better when perfect than a Wave. You'll see that the Wave has won a number of Brewer's Cup championships.

I'm also confident that buying better coffee would have a much larger impact than that last marginal improvement in your technique. And yes, a Hario hand mill is really a mediocre grinder. Something like a virtuoso or a LIDO 2 should get you pretty close to shop grinder quality, though not quite there.

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[creative nickname]
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#6: Post by [creative nickname] »

I'm a big fan of the v60, but I agree that it requires more technique than most other manual brew methods. It is quite possible that your pour technique is adding to inconsistency. But even with a perfect pour, your Hario grinder and the fact that you are using grocery store coffee will combine to make it very hard achieve good results. An excellent coffee, ground by a high quality burr grinder, is by far the most important factor in all forms of brewing. Start by improving the coffee and grinder, and then you can fuss over the details of recipe and technique.
LMWDP #435

MWJB
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#7: Post by MWJB »

Recipe & technique is almost everything with manual pourover, it's more than 'details', it doesn't matter what grinder or coffee you have, if you just stick to a given method without understanding the objectives.

Your Hario grinder will probably only give a reasonably consistent grind at the finer end of settings...a better grinder is a great idea (certainly +1 on that), but a decent cup in every 20 suggests that you are in the outer margins and getting lucky once in a while, rather than capitalising on a solid technique.

At coarse settings the Hario grind will be very uneven and so will your extraction.

Try and identify settings where you grind is visibly more even. You probably wont have a great range of choice with that grinder, it's a limiting factor...but for now it's what you have so you my as well crack on. When you get a new grinder you'll have to dial that in too, it won't magically assume your technique.

Break up your pour into various stages, to slow down the brew and note the effect it has on the flavour. E.g. if 1 pour of 360g after the bloom gives a bright acidic cup, then try breaking the pour into 2 equal halves (54g bloom then 180g & another 180g after 60sec), without letting the bed dry out between pours...then try 3 pours (54g bloom, then 120g, another 120g at 60s, 120g at 120sec). Aim to deliberately under & overextract so you recognise failure modes.

Older/darker roasted/more soluble coffee will need a faster brew time. Freshly roasted, lighter roasts, denser less soluble beans might need a slower brew time. It's best to try and make adjustments with grind only, but you currently aren't in a great position to do that, you might have to make minor grind adjustments & augment them with pour adjustments. Forget "3:00", stick to the ratio and brew by taste...speed up/slow down based on that.

The longer your 414g of water is in contact with the 27g grinds the more you will extract, the shorter the less, how much you want to extract will be a bit of a moving target, dependent on the coffee, but you should be able to get more consistent results, especially with comparable roast levels.

Keep notes, be consistent with the pours & aim to get a certain weight in the brewer in a certain time at each pour.

Personally, I'd perhaps work with smaller brews...less wastage, more practice opportunities/attempts prior to over-caffeination...then when you hit a relatively repeatable technique, try and scale up.

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jesse (original poster)
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#8: Post by jesse (original poster) »

Thanks again for all the replies. This is all really helpful.

Of course the two most integral factors (coffee and grinder) would also be the most costly!

So anyway, I'm not in any kind of financial place to upgrade my grinder to anything that would significantly outperform the Hario. What about one of those lower bearing upgrade kits from OE? I know it caters more to press-coarse grind, but in my experience with the v60, anything finer than medium/drip territory and I can kiss any clarity goodbye. I wonder if one of these kits would substantially improve the consistency of a drip grind in the Hario.

Regarding coffee, well.. I guess I'll have to start laying down the scratch for the good stuff. I was recording with a guy in Detroit recently who had just gotten a shipment of Wendelboe stuff in, and it was OUTRAGEOUSLY good. I think what I'm starting to figure out that it's the ultra light roasts that really flip my switch.

One other thing I meant to ask: I'm using an 01 size v60, brewing aroun 230 gram batches.. should the length my pours still fall somewhere in line with what's recommended for 02 batches (2:00 +)? I have a pretty deft hand with my kettle, but even for me that has been a challenge. Maybe I'll also grab a couple restrictor valves while I'm at it..

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Jofari
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#9: Post by Jofari »

Marshall wrote:Most professional baristas haven't mastered it either, which is why it tends to be hit or miss in so many shops. I don't have the patience or skill for it, which is why I prefer infusion/drip brewers like the Bonavita or Clever.
I agree with Marshall. It's very rare for me to find a well-brewed pourover (even at very well respected shops). Most of the time I can do better myself, but I still find my results to be inconsistent (especially with a v60). I can, however, get consistently well-brewed cups from immersion brewers (aeropress, clever, etc.) so I tend to use them much more often.

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NoStream
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#10: Post by NoStream »

jesse wrote:Regarding coffee, well.. I guess I'll have to start laying down the scratch for the good stuff. I was recording with a guy in Detroit recently who had just gotten a shipment of Wendelboe stuff in, and it was OUTRAGEOUSLY good. I think what I'm starting to figure out that it's the ultra light roasts that really flip my switch.

One other thing I meant to ask: I'm using an 01 size v60, brewing around 230 gram batches.. should the length my pours still fall somewhere in line with what's recommended for 02 batches (2:00 +)? I have a pretty deft hand with my kettle, but even for me that has been a challenge. Maybe I'll also grab a couple restrictor valves while I'm at it..
Wendelboe's coffee is amazing, but, sadly, quite expensive and hard to find in the US. You can get Coffee Collective shipped in nitrogen sealed bags at pretty reasonable rates - for Nordic coffee, anyway. Also, Heart is pretty much the only truly Nordic-style US roaster. (Shout out to Mountain Air Roasting as well.) Ritual also roasts quite light, as does Intelligentsia, but they're not quite as light as Heart and TW. And with American roasters, underdevelopment is a real concern - again, except Heart, which I've never had an underdeveloped coffee from.

You should be able to get 3:00+ times with an 01. You need to pour slowly and grind reasonably fine with a V60. But, alas, finer means more extraction, and the sweet spot for your grinder might be as low as 17-18% extraction. So that's a bit of a conundrum. I was literally never happy with a V60 from my Vario with ceramic espresso burrs. Never. Upgrading to steel brew burrs solved it.

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