...Split from Roasting for Turkish/Greek style coffee? by moderator; see kahvedelisi's introductory comments here...

cannonfodder wrote:Sorry about that. I don't get onto coffeegeek very often anymore. I obviously have a misunderstanding of the brew method. Every reference I have seen refers to three boiling, or maybe more appropriately three foamings.

Almost everything related to Turkish (including Turkish coffee) there aren't much written statements or clear descriptions. It's kinda "mouth to mouth" thing, you pass what you heard/saw from your elders to younger generation. Also we often don't feel the need to explain in detail what we do and how we do it, you watch and learn, there's no questioning in general. So we expect exactly same from other people, "watch and learn don't question it", when "unexpected" curious questions asked, such as "what's the brewing temperature, what's the exact fineness of coffee?" due to lack of knowledge we start "making up things" and our aim is to make curious observer happy I don't believe there's a single human being on earth including Turks) can come up with a logical explanation (other than "hygiene??" which makes me roflol) if someone asks "why bring coffee to boiling degree 3 times in a row?" The froth is essential in Turkish coffee, once it gets boiled you'll lose that froth so what's the purpose of doing it? To serve it extremely hot? That's also ridiculous, it will "again" lose temperature once you get it away from heat, I mean doing 3 times boiling thingie won't give you an extra warm cup of coffee for extra longer period of time. Anyways I hope you get the point and I was not too boring, just tried to explain a little "what's behind it". For short --> when people don't know the answers or if they haven't done some serious research on the subject, then they just make up an answer right there just to make you happy (or maybe to keep their reputation, I don't know). "That" is the main reason for "variations" of Turkish coffee, not the knowledge driven people.

cannonfodder wrote:The coffee should bloom and froth just before the boil if my observations are correct, unless you live at some ridicules altitude. I just may pick up an Ibirk to try it out. What style of coffee is used? I am sure not all blends work well for this brew type just as not all coffee makes good espresso. Is there a particular blend of beans that works well?

Right. We call it cezve though. It changes from country to country. Arabic countries call it ibrik. But in Turkiye ibrik is something else (you serve liquids with it) For instance pots used for mirra are ibriks, pitcher to be more precise. Cezve is more like a mini skillet (without lid etc). About blends and roasting I had written some info, just check previous messages in this thread.

Also I'm posting some pictures here to cover some questions about roasting, grinding, brewing turkish coffee (When it comes to taking pictures I'm the worst anyone can imagine, sorry for the quality) SHB Costarica tarazzu roasted to city+ ground with turkish mill, brewed in 1 cup sized copper cezve. Taken away from heat immediately after froth formed and poured into cup.

orwa wrote:Interesting to know that. In the Arabic countries they use a true powdery grind, that is, they will go for the finest grind possible, and it's not unusual for someone to complain if the dust at the bottom of the Funjan was not as smooth as wet flour. Moreover, in Saudi Arabia, as well as in the rest of the Peninsula, Bedouins has a simple device called Al-Mihbaj, which is pretty similar to the pot-type two-piece garlic and herbs crusher, but whose bowel has a longer and a narrower neck so that ground coffee would not escape upon continuous (and violent) hitting by the roundly-ended hitting rod. The Mihbaj does indeed produce something similar in feeling to flour, and seems to meet Bedouins' preference for their coffee, which I believe is considered Turkish coffee (they say simply "coffee"), but I am not sure. What do you think? an incorrect practice of the Turkish brewing method, similar to the three-boils rumor? or an acceptable variation ?

If coffee is as fine as flour then you'll get a fincan full of muddy beverage which is not such pleasure to drink. little coarser grinding prevents this and you get a clearer cup of coffee telve (coffee grinds) sinks to bottom of the cup. A side note; cups (fincan) used for turkish coffee much much thinner than those used for espresso. Here's an example how thin it can be



What bedouins call mihbaj we call dibek (but not using much anymore). So yes there's a specific grind size for "good tasting" Turkish coffee and it's a little coarser than Arabic and Greek coffee both for different historical reasons And I don't believe ultra fine grind is an incorrect practice of turkish coffee brewing. You dial your grinder for espresso brewing right? There's not an exact grind size for espresso brewing such as only 0,2 micron! Even if your grind is coarser or finer it's still espresso brewing, I believe it's same with turkish coffee brewing, fine or coarse, brewing method counts. Grind fineness affects the taste/look of beverage it doesn't change the brewing method. Besides there will always be variations, many things changed in time (especially last 150 years) but there's not enough communication among these nations/cultures anymore to convey those changes.

Here you can see what's in the cup (first 4 picture shows the same coffee I posted above) then another time (last 4 picture), to show if it's consistent and the amount of froth after 3 sips

Is the addition of sugar normal or is it strictly personal preference? If I was sitting in a café in Istanbul having a cup, would I get funny looks from those around me?

I have also read that the shape of the brewing pot is critical. It helps to settle the grounds to the bottom of the pot before decanting. Is that true, or can any suitable sized container be used?

cannonfodder wrote:Is the addition of sugar normal or is it strictly personal preference?

Sugar is not essential. You can brew with or without sugar. Though, when you're ordering at a cafe you should mention about your preference, otherwise your coffee will be prepared with sugar. You can order 3 types, black, with sugar, with extra sugar. It's not recommended to order black and add extra sugar, cos later when you add sugar you'll have to mix it yourself and lose the foam doing that.

cannonfodder wrote:If I was sitting in a café in Istanbul having a cup, would I get funny looks from those around me?

I can't see why that would happen.

cannonfodder wrote:I have also read that the shape of the brewing pot is critical. It helps to settle the grounds to the bottom of the pot before decanting. Is that true, or can any suitable sized container be used?

I have various sized/shaped cezves at home, conical, reversed conical, cylindrical, even used a ball-like shaped ones, some are made of copper, some made of stainless steel, there are cezves with different working principles, with electric, stovetop etc. All work great and brew almost same quality. So I don't think pot shape is critical for helping to settle grounds.

Actually the cup you use for serving can be more critical. Due to brewing style, Turkish coffee served hotter than espresso, and thin walled cup keeps the heat for longer period of time (though many will object this, I highly recommend testing side by side) For Turkish coffee, the thickest cup I use has 3.5mm thickness. You have to wait half minute or so (not to get burned) for the first sip, that gives enough time for grounds to settle already.

PS. You don't preheat the cup for Turkish.

kahvedelisi

Just wanted to thank you for taking the time to post the photos.

Educations is a great thing.

Michael

I have a bell shaped steaming pitcher I do not use very often (stainless steel). I may roast up a Yemen and try brewing a pot in my pitcher, then decide if I want a pretty hammered copper brewer. I am sure the wife will be thrilled if I get more coffee stuff.

Another question, you heat the water until the coffee starts to form a froth, but how fast do you heat it? given the super fine grind, I would think getting from room temperature to foam as fast as you can would be ideal since the fine grind requires very little in the way of steep time. Is there any rule of thumb for brew time per volume?

Kuban111 wrote:Just wanted to thank you for taking the time to post the photos.

Actually, thank you Michael. It was your your cafe cubano post made me decide to write a response to these forums, otherwise I would just keep reading as I did in previous years

And thanks to Dan for splitting these messages, indeed it will be easier to follow this way.

cannonfodder wrote:I have a bell shaped steaming pitcher I do not use very often (stainless steel). I may roast up a Yemen and try brewing a pot in my pitcher, then decide if I want a pretty hammered copper brewer. I am sure the wife will be thrilled if I get more coffee stuff.

Yes good idea, but since I don't know the volume of your pitcher I'll give you some tips which I think may come handy during the process.

Generally serving size for Turkish coffee per person is measured by cup size, and cups we use for Turkish coffee varies from 80ml to 110ml (here just a side note, cups got slightly bigger in time, cups from 18th or 19th centruies used for turkish coffee are smaller). The white one I used above is 100ml (when filled to rim). I recommend taking 80-90ml as your base though, then with practice you decide which one suits you best. For instance my mom prefers hers as double in 160ml cup.

Amount of coffee used per serving is 1tsp, but tea spoon sizes varies from country to country so I recommend measuring with volume again (sorry never measured with weight so I'm not sure how many grams). Per serving 7,5ml (1/2 tbs) will be okay, again you may increase the amount if you find the taste weak.

cannonfodder wrote:Another question, you heat the water until the coffee starts to form a froth, but how fast do you heat it? given the super fine grind, I would think getting from room temperature to foam as fast as you can would be ideal since the fine grind requires very little in the way of steep time. Is there any rule of thumb for brew time per volume?

Perfect question, and you're very right about getting from room temp. to foam as fast as possible. This is another rumor/false info about Turkish coffee already. People always advice and claim that Turkish coffee is best when brewed slooowly (especially over hot embers). Some people are so fanatic about this issue, you could easily find yourself in heated discussions without any logical reasons or explanations at all If you remember I had said in my previous posts "you watch and learn" I believe that's the main reason why people insist about low/slow brewing temps/methods (Back in 13th to 19th century, heat source for cooking, brewing --> hot embers, candle flame, later on gas flame etc etc). So.. any Turk you'll meet in the future will advice you brewing as slow as possible, except me Seriously, I recommend brewing as fast as possible, and yes I have time/volume sweet spot for myself but I'm not sure if it will work for you too, cos the equipments we use probably are not identical.

Here is what I'm using with a regular cezve;

Gas Stovetop, (smallest section at highest flame, cos my cezve's foot is small)
110ml sized cezve (when filled to rim, but I'm not filling it to rim)
90ml water (neither cold nor warm but absolutely fresh)
10ml ground coffee (sometimes more sometimes less, this also depends on coffee and roast darkness I'm using, as I said above you may prefer starting with 1/2 tbs then increase)
(you decide how much sugar you'll use)

Into cezve you add coffee and water, turn on your stove at highest flame, place your cezve over it, after 10 seconds you give it a good stir with a tea spoon (again 5 to 10 sec) then you don't stir it anymore, leave it as it is. Brewing completed in 1,5 min time.

With an electric cezve brewing time is shorter. For 4 cups it takes 2 minutes, for 1 cup it takes a little less than 45seconds. Also with electric ones you get much more foam due to fast brewing. Later I'll brew with electric one and post pictures here, but right now it's 1am here and I shouldn't be drinking another cup before I go to sleep. Here's an example of electric cezve till that time.

I would disagree on the speed part
It is going to depend on your taste and perhaps on the coffee used.
To me slowly done turkish coffee has better taste and mouthfeel. It is heavier.

I would also add that it is easier to make good turkish coffee with ibrik that has narrow top. Narrow top makes it easier to create "the plug" on top which controls the temperature not letting water boil.

chelya wrote:I would also add that it is easier to make good turkish coffee with ibrik that has narrow top. Narrow top makes it easier to create "the plug" on top which controls the temperature not letting water boil.

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Brewing 2 cups Turkish coffee with electric cezve;

FYI, here I used 4 months old turkish fine pre-ground market coffee (Brazil Rio minas roasted to cinnamon/light city by kuru kahveci mehmet efendi, the most common brand in Turkiye)

7,5ml measured per cup, Volume of cup used here 80ml, measured water with it = 15ml coffee + 160ml water



(If you'll add) 2 sugar cubes per cup, turned on switch, stirred with a spoon for 10 seconds, brewing for 2 cups completed in 80 seconds (and that's why I couldn't get a decent picture of "foam rising" before it gets boiled, with electric cezve final step happens so fast, I wouldn't be able to turn off the switch in time while taking pictures)



And here is final cup with perfect looking foam and all, can't comment on taste though cos it was not for me.. but I guess nobody noticed it's 4 months old coffee cos I got praises about how good it's

What is the best material for a cezve? Copper? Stainless steel?
I was thinking of getting one this afternoon, but those I saw at the grocery store seemed to be made out of aluminum (which for some reason turned me off).