I'm looking to upgrade from my current setup and could use some advice. I have spent the last several days reading through this forum (particularly Why do bulk grinders produce a superior grind for non espresso preparation?) gathering information and think I have a decent sense of what I want.

My questions is: If you only drank brewed coffee and only cared about taste, speed and lack of a mess (and were willing to trade some $ for less clean up) what would you get?

Here's my setup:
Beans - I've been roasting at home for the past 3.5 yrs, mostly DP coffees from SM. I get slowly better each roast, but am probably still way behind the learning curve.
Grinders - I'm 100% happy with the cup I get from my Zas Turkish hand mill and less happy with results from a krupps burr that I've had for years but it is significantly faster and that matters a great deal to me. Unfortunately it makes a heck of a mess and that also is a big deal for me as I am only home to sleep, wake up make a cup of coffee and go to work. A daily mess for several days gets pretty nasty.
Extraction - mostly clever, have all manner of other no espresso devices. I like espresso but am positive I won't be getting into that at home due to the prohibitive time investment to get decent at it. For me, I'd rather continue to improve at roasting for great SO brewed cups.

For me, the most important thing is that my setup and process is simple and fast and that it doesn't require much clean up. I work 80hrs/week and for me an extra 3 minutes sometimes means the difference b/t getting to drink my own coffee on the way to work vs char$ or much much worse.

I realize I don't need (and might not want) a great espresso grinder for brewed coffee. If I could get the taste and lack of mess I get with my hand mill with any faster system I'd be thrilled and likely would never buy another grinder. I think in terms of grind, all I really need is a Maestro or Virtouso, but these have grind hoppers similar to the setup I have now and I would go to great length to avoid the mess caused by removing them.

I think a doserless espresso grinder could produce the least mess, but will I be happy with the taste results (I'm thinking minE vs Compak K3 touch vs Macap doserless)?

Or should I be looking into a bullk commercial grinder like the bunn LPG or G1 or something similar? From the recent thread, it seemed like people were screening fines out after grinding with these - that would be one too many steps for me.

I'd really appreciate any advice. I realize that I'm talking about spending way more money than should be necessary just to save a few minutes. Please assume that for me the ability to drink my own coffee is worth a one time absurdly expensive purchase (expensive for drip not for espresso).

Seems that the Baratza Vario would be a great choice for you.

I was researching the same thing tonight. I have a vario but have been drinking a lot of french press lately. After reading the *Which* Baratza grinder for drip/press? thread, I am thinking of picking up a maestro plus. Sounds like the vario is awesome for espresso but less than awesome for drip or french press where you want a consistent grind.

Perhaps keep your eye open for a used Ditting KR804 off eBay. If the size is acceptable, then from my experience with its brother the KR1203, its fast, excellent grind and has almost no retention. Not messy as long as you hold an appropriate container under the spout or attach a bag (which is of course what it was designed for). Reasonably loud. I just went to a coffee shop this morning which had one paired with their Clover, so they obviously rate it highly. Good deals on used ones can certainly be had, thats how I got mine.

"Clean single dose" is true of almost any grinder which is not for espresso. Bulk grinders, little Solis/Baratza grinders, hand grinders, etc all drop the coffee straight down into a catch basket rather than sideways into a doser or elephant trunk. As such they single dose and clean out much more readily than any espresso grinder.

"Great for non-espresso brewing" is a different issue entirely. I'd like to be able to sip on a brewed coffee and know from the taste how to correct the grind adjustment; but I can't, and I don't know anyone who can and is talking. Without skills like that, it is almost impossible to compare two grinders with any degree of confidence or accuracy; and I am not aware of any good tests of grinders for brewing.

The conventional wisdom is that bigger is better, and specifically designed for brewing is better than general purpose; that the Mahlkoenig's and Dittings are best, Bunns and Grindmasters are good, and home grinders and espresso grinders are only mediocre. I tend to agree but barring improved skills adjusting the grinders by taste, I can't be certain.

For instance, the big grinders could have a big sweet spot, while the smaller grinders may require a more precise setting which we cannot find properly. In that case, its not the smaller grinders are worse, it's that we do not know how to operate them properly. There is some truth in saying that flat burr espresso grinders have this adjustment rather than quality problem when compared to the big conicals. Thi smay be true of big grinders for brewing too.

I'm not saying this is the case; but I am saying that switching from a small Capresso grinder to a big bulk grinder may not cause the heavens to open and the angels to sing. Mostly, my Bunn does as well or better than my espresso or home grinders; but not always, and not in any way I can readily predict and control.

What are you willing to spend? The problem here is that you'll have to base your decisions on reading instead of tasting. Thus, someone can exaggerate or you may not taste what others taste.

If a $150 grinder makes you happy, then get one. It will save you money and that in itself can bring you happiness. Happiness (satisfactory experiences with coffee) is relative to individuals and time. Little by little the jump bar can go higher and higher or it can stay the same depending on your level of satisfaction (it can get crazy).

The big guns grinders of drip coffee (retail grinders) produce honey like liquids with no bad bitterness (like teas). Drinking their nectar is nice. The cheaper grinders will throw some bitterness easier or will change something else but there is a difference. Best thing is to try and judge it yourself but it is difficult to judge by reading comments.

Cheers

Arpi wrote:Happiness (satisfactory experiences with coffee)

the life's most guarded secret has been bean revealed

Arpi wrote:Cheers

Cheers!



Ok, I had to!
Looks like the subject is tough, I wish you best luck and most of all, I sincerely wish you have more free time... not only for coffee, but for you, off work. Even if you love your work, I wish you this!

Myself I have a vintage hand Zassenhaus for use with drip, yet I quite don't drink coffee other way then espresso - otherwise, considering grinding 50 or more grams by hand, I don't know if I would be that enthusiastic for my Zass as I am.

Thanks for the replies so far, they have been helpful.

As far as how much am I willing to spend, I wouldn't go higher than $500 for something I reasonably expected to taste as good as my zas hand grinder but work faster and be clean. I wouldn't want to spend that much for something that might make worse drip (sounds like if I went in the vario, compak k3 , mini E, macap direction I might be at risk for this). I would go higher for something like a used or new ditting or uber grinder if I had a chance to see for myself that it would actually improve my cup.

As far Another Jim's comments about the vague-aries of making good drip I must say it is surprising to hear people who clearly have a great handle on espresso knowledge cite difficulties with drip. For me, if I grind with zas, weigh my grinds in the clever, weigh the water as I add it to the clever sitting on the scale, and plunge in 2-3 minutes I usually get a great cup with tastes specific to the crop or roast (I'm sure I've just set myself up for bad cups now that I've said that). Now, if I do the same with my cheap electric grinder it's faster, but its at least 50/50 for getting offensive flavors or not being able to taste the flavors I was shooting for with the roast (and I make a mess).

I did find this:
http://www.espressoparts.com/BAR_PORTAHOLDER
which would make using one of the cheaper baratza grinders a reasonable alternative (my only hesitation with them was the mess created by removing the grinds tray - if I spend a little money on one of these and it's only as good as my krupps but cleaner than I'd be ok with the $ spent).

I think my plan is to see what other feedback I get, keep an eye out for a used ditting and if nothing comes along buy a maestro or virtuoso and start trying to find a way to see a new ditting or uber grinder firsthand before buying.

Arpi - thanks for your comments. I'm sure my hours sound ridiculous, but it's only for a few more years and I'm happy with my work so it feels worth it.

Ryan, almost any of the grinders you have been considering will treat the coffee very differently from your old Krups. Most of the home burr grinders of the period (Krups, Braun, Saeco, etc) had burrs that smash instead of cut the beans. (You can see typical examples, though not including the Krups, in the first few rows of photos at Ken Wilson's helpful site.) This yields an uncontrolled distribution of grounds, all of which brew at different rates. While it is impossible (and not necessarily desirable) to have a completely uniform grind for drip, most better grinders should produce a narrower distribution than your Krups.

I assume that the mess you are worried about is not from static (which is easy to tame) but some other aspect of bad design. The inexpensive Solis/Baratza grinders used to be criticized for this as well. We use an espresso grinder with a doser for drip, dosing into a flat cup for transfer to the drip maker or press pot. This is very neat, since any mess from the fines takes place in the sealed doser.

Arpi - thanks for your comments. I'm sure my hours sound ridiculous, but it's only for a few more years and I'm happy with my work so it feels worth it.

If you have peace of mind with you, working hard or long does not matter

I wouldn't go higher than $500

You could get a used Bunn LPG from Ebay or a new one. That would be the best option for affordable best quality (from reading comments and opinions). The only thing is that it is not dosserless or stepless but that may not be important.

The US Mahlkonig distribution center is in NC. They sell (ship) the Uber grinder Mahlkonig Tanzania (aka Ditting 805). If you give them a call and were to take another grinder with you, they may let you do a test comparison.

Cheers