maigre wrote:... I may have a French Press in storage. I need to go look for it. I haven't tried a Kone filter or the like. That may be worth a try.

All my pourovers are KONE brewed. That and the Espro press came to mind when you first mentioned possible paper issues. Drop me a note off line and I would be glad to ship you an Espro or KONE to save some associated costs before drop the dime on them Jim.

Boldjava wrote:All my pourovers are KONE brewed. That and the Espro press came to mind when you first mentioned possible paper issues. Drop me a note off line and I would be glad to ship you an Espro or KONE to save some associated costs before drop the dime on them Jim.

Thanks so much, Dave. I'll PM you. Something without a paper filter is an obvious need for me to try.

drgary wrote:Just a thought, and forgive me if I'm off base. I wonder if you have a drip method dialed in yet? Have you taken time with a bitter brew to coarsen the grind, lower the temperature or increase the dose? If you haven't quite dialed in perhaps doing so would give you something more to your liking than prolonged immersion.

No worries. I've put kind of obsessive effort into studying techniques and brewing pourover coffee. Lots of hours and enthusiasm with careful tracking of my efforts, controlled changes to dial in coffees. I make no claim to being an expert barista. I've only been doing this for about a year. But I've put in my time. Comparing notes with and watching baristas do their thing, I feel like I'm doing OK. Lots to learn, though, and much experimentation lies ahead. I just bought a couple of bags to work with today. I'm quite certain that part of the issue is me, both in terms of improvements I can make and the sensitivity of my taste buds. I've made lots of good coffee and plenty of bad cups, too. But the point of this topic isn't specific to my own brews, though that's half of it. It's that I almost never find cowboy coffee or coffee at cuppings to have harsh, bitter flavors and it's not rare that I find that paper filtered coffee does. That includes the pours at lots of big name cafes. I've mentioned this to coffee professionals at cuppings before and I've had people agree with me. They might be few, but they're not none. I'm trying to figure out what's flaws in the brews, what the limitations of my sense of taste are, and why the crudest method is the least potentially offensive, even if it's not necessarily likely to produce the best brew, either.

drgary wrote:Just a thought, and forgive me if I'm off base. I wonder if you have a drip method dialed in yet? Have you taken time with a bitter brew to coarsen the grind, lower the temperature or increase the dose? If you haven't quite dialed in perhaps doing so would give you something more to your liking than prolonged immersion.

This is what I would suggest too.

Coffee that isn't over extracted or over roasted should not be bitter.

Coffee that is ground coarser without a lot of fines should not over extract.

My coffee tastes great-- sweet and rich-- even a day later in the thermos from the fridge because i often am too busy teaching to drink it all. I don't add anything.

Don't ever assume that "pros" do everything properly either. They do what they do well... but what they do well maybe not be great for you (or me, or the coffee) regardless of what others around you may say. Emperor's new clothes and all that.

I've learned from experience many fine restaurants serve mediocre food that looks pretty. Getting something truly good is a whole other skill.

Thanks for the input. I'll keep all this in mind, particularly that just because I got it at a name cafe doesn't mean they've nailed it. It's my intention to get really good at this, so I need to forge ahead.

Today, I brewed a Guatemalan that I had bought yesterday. It's still only three days off roast, so it's probably not yet at its best. My Kalita Wave brew was uninspired, slightly bitter, not sweet. My cupping style brew right next to it was sweet, rich, nutty, and vibrant. Same water, same temperature, same coffee, though the cupping brew was ground slightly coarser. For the Kalita Wave brew, I got a 3:15 brew time, which was probably too short, shorter than intended. It didn't taste underextracted in the sense that it was sour or weak, but the desired flavors weren't very forward. And that bit of bitter ness w. I also poured more water than usual rinsing the filter to try and make sure that I got all the paper tastes out of it.

Why would the KW pour have bitterness with less brew time than the cowboy brew that extracted longer? It strikes me that the biggest differences were the presence of the filter and agitation/drawdown. I suppose time was a factor, too as the cupping brew extracted longer. Something to work with for the next try...

The Guatemalan I mentioned is a pretty light roast as are most coffees I buy. The darkest roast I ever buy would be light medium at the darkest. I also have an Ethiopian that was roasted on the same date as the Guatemalan, 9-22, that's probably a bit less roasted. 208° is up there. I usually pour at 202-204°, though on occasion, I'll go below 200°. I used to pour close to that 208° number, I think, before I started using the Bonavita variable temperature kettle. I'll try that. I'll make a few cups at different temperatures to see what happens.

It bears mentioning that sometimes it can be tough to tell bitter from sour.