gophish wrote:Correct, maybe I misspoke- I think I often times prefer these coffees as more of a pour over, perhaps because it's biasing a lower extraction than if I did everything the same and did a full immersion brew. So, my hypothesis was that if I sieved out the fines (which would be over-extracted) I could brew using the immersion method to more fully extract the desirable flavors. Maybe I'm incorrect with this thought process though.

No, I don't think you misspoke. In a pourover sieving out the fines will reduce the proportion of the grind that over-extracts and, as you say, more fully extract more desirable flavours.

The immersion method, all else being equal, will reach a slightly lower strength (re. what I assumed you meant by amplified/bolder) for the same level of extraction. If you sieve out the fines, without updosing, steeping longer, or grinding significantly finer (may need to do more than one of these?) it will normally be less bold. Better clarity might be perceived?

After a short while, the coffee in the Bonavita immersion, will have hit a reasonable level of extraction and having coffee, not water, above the bed will reduce the negative effects of over extraction of fines some.

I'm not saying sieving won't work, just that it may not suit your specific goal in this case (depends on our goal vs start point)? I'd be more inclined to grind just a shade coarser for an immersion, if worried about fines, then sieve out any boulders. The average grind size (with water temp & steep time) largely limits how far an immersion will extract, larger average grinds will mean less extraction in a given timeframe. With the pourover you can pour in smaller pulses to draw out brew time & compensate, usually correcting the brew, it's not always so easy to steer an overly coarse immersion in the same way.

^we were coming about it from different angles, I was not clear that I was comparing my current pour over style without sieving (which would reduce contact/brew time with the finer particles since it's not being immersed) vs. immersion/clever style with sieving (which would more fully extract the desirably sized particles due to the longer contact time with the water and the reduction of the fines). But what you said absolutely makes sense, about all things being equal actually getting a potentially lower extraction in the immersion method.

TomC wrote:Here's a quick picture series...

Hello Tom, what is the typical weight that is lost when your sieve? I tried a No 40 sieve and lost a fairly good amount which means I need to go coarser but knowing your loss will help me ballpark (of course ill still be experimenting as well).

Is it bad that I get just as excited about these experiments as I do drinking the coffee? haha

As to some of the other posts in here. Sieving for the clever will definitely remove the bite of the fines and result in a smoother cup I think. It will also force you to steep longer. I would say 5 minutes should would be the highest I'd steep before turning to a finer grind.

I don't (subjectively) see reducing the "fines" as a way to smooth out a cup. I do it to increase clarity and flavor separation. It seems to me to highlight and let some of the brighter notes sparkle more, not being laden down with the flattening overextraction taste I get from brewing normally. All grinding, regardless of burrs or sharpness produce fines, so even though it looks like I'm saying that not sieving leads to a flat over-extracted cup, that's not what I mean. I just find that the separation and sparkle is higher when I do. Not a matter of one person being right and another wrong, it's just what I find works.

The normal amount of fines I sieve from a typical 20g dose is approximately 1.5g on new Ditting burrs (both 1203 and 804) and the Hausgrind/Feldgrind(s). So when I'm brewing, I start with 22g, grind, sieve and re-weigh for an accurate starting point.

I'm willing to use a larger amount of coffee to increase my brew strength, after sieving. In my opinion, updosing to 15:1 or even 14:1 and below, isn't wasteful if I like the results more.

For an immersion brew like I'm doing, with the quick and vigorous way I'm agitating the bed of coffee from the start, I think the brew time is less important overall. But that's just me, and I'm not solely aiming for a high extraction, I'm only looking for what I feel is the best taste and that alone. That being said, if you're extracting for 5 minutes or 10, the tail end of that period is contributing only a minor amount to the the TDS in the cup. The lions share of the extraction happens very early on, especially the brighter, lighter components I'm interested in. If I happen to be brewing something like an CIty + roast Indo/Pacific or a clean, well bodied Brazil, I don't care if the brew time goes longer, since I'm more interested in those complex notes and mouthfeel, body etc than the lighter acids/aromatics in those particular cups.

Occasionally I'll play with a finer grind (but it produces more fines) or a bit more agitation, but for the most part, I'm just sticking with what's working and dial in my coffees by brew temp on the PID kettle.

Hello.

I have just got myself a new version of the Clever Dripper and trying to get my brew on spot

I have tried a couple of different methods from youtube, but now my total drawdown time is over 5min.
Would the optimal total time be 4min ? I have gotmyself a basic electrical grinder also to start.
I guess a coarser grind would be better to get a faster drawdown time, to 4min total.
Closer to the FrenchPress range instead of filter/drip ?
I am using a Melitta original (non bleached) no.4 filter, but did order also Kalita 100 103 filters for future try.

My beans atm are: Ethiopia Yirgacheffe, Reko, Kurkume.

There seems to be allkinds of different styles with bloom and other tricks.

Will have to findout the optimal technique

Patrick, if your drawdown time is 5 minutes, that's really long. I'm at about 45-60 seconds. I am brewing Ethiopian Konga right now, and it's ground at about 1.5 (1 full turn plus 5 increments) on a Lido2.

Your grinder may make a relatively large amount of fines/dust which may be clogging your filter. It may be worth trying to make the grind a bit more coarse, or to consider using a Sieve like Tom has mentioned in this thread. You can also try the #4 white Filtropa filters I get from Sweet Marias, they work great.

Thank you for the reply.

Yes tomorrow morning i will try to go a bit more coarse, the consistensy is not the best with my fairly entry level grinder.
Would be interested in the Sieve, sadly i dont know where to start looking at them here in Finland. Is this 400microns somekind of perfect size ?
What is the story behind it ?

Been also interested in the new Lido 3 grinder, might be possible to get it from England when they have it in stock again. Should produce a quality consistency ? Even better than Lido 2? Which is great allready i hear
Will have to fine tune the 300g water / 20g of coffee method with a coarser grind.
Before with my 3cup frenchpress i used 300g water /15g coffee, and quite liked it. Too weak ratio ?
To each its own i guess in these taste things

patsesson wrote:Before with my 3cup frenchpress i used 300g water /15g coffee, and quite liked it. Too weak ratio ?

A French press has very rudimentary filtering so tiny particles get into the cup & bolster the mouthfeel, I often brew French press just a little higher than 5g/100g and find this strong enough, if not 'a strong cup' generally. However, the Clever has a paper filter plus the bed when settled in the brewer also acts as a filter, removing a lot of these tiny particles that otherwise get in the cup with a French press. Subsequently, I brew in the Clever at more like 6.5-7g/100g, I find brews in the low 5's to be too thin, even if they're sweet enough.

MWJB wrote:A French press has very rudimentary filtering so tiny particles get into the cup & bolster the mouthfeel, I often brew French press just a little higher than 5g/100g and find this strong enough, if not 'a strong cup' generally. However, the Clever has a paper filter plus the bed when settled in the brewer also acts as a filter, removing a lot of these tiny particles that otherwise get in the cup with a French press. Subsequently, I brew in the Clever at more like 6.5-7g/100g, I find brews in the low 5's to be too thin, even if they're sweet enough.

Great info! Thank you.

I agree with Mark on dosing, with Clever I use 7 grams Coffee to 100 grams of water.

While I love my Lido2, I would still try to keep tweaking the grind with your current grinder. I'll bet you can find a grind that works well for you. Clever is a very forgiving method of brewing.