I wasn't exactly sure if this should be posted here or in the Knockbox, so mod's please feel free to move if needed. I am trying to determine which and what water filtration and possibly softening I need to plumb in my Technika IV, which is an E-61, rotary pump, HX machine with a stainless boiler. I have read Jim Schulman's insanely long water FAQs a few times and I understand most of it, but some is beyond me. I am located in Phoenix, AZ and I know the incoming water supply is on the hard side, with a tested Gh of 140-160 mg/l and Kh of 180-200 mg/l, with a pH around 7 to 7.4.

My incoming household water supply does not currently undergo any filtration or softening (my refrigerator has a replaceable cartridge filter used for drinking water, and I use Crystal Geyser Natural Alpine bottled water in the machine). My house does have a commercial grade softening and filtration system in place that was bypassed and inactive prior purchasing the house. Part of my question would be if that is typically sufficient for softening and I only need to get that running and purchase the plumbing kits, or if I will still need additional water treatment going to the machine, in which case I will probably keep the household system inactive as I am otherwise happy with the water quality. I spoke with the manufacturer of the water treatment system and they said it will typically remove all hardness such that total hardness would be 0 grains, but up to 3 grains is still within tolerance. I also spoke with a tech at Chris' Coffee and they said I should be targeting a hardness of around 3 grains.

So now, I'm hesitant because I have read enough to know that a total hardness of 3 grains doesn't paint the whole picture since the alkalinity also needs to be considered, and am also hesitant because it sounds like if I went with completely soft water from the household softening system, it could be too soft?

I have researched and read quite a bit on the topic, but am still a little unsure if there's a way to know which path I should go down, or what would be best for the longevity of my machine and quality of espresso. Thanks in advance for any guidance or help as I try and fumble through this.

I like softening then RO then adding back some hardness. But then I already had the first two stages.

FYI Crystal Geyser Spring Water tests out at 145-150ppm for temporary GH & KH. We love it for drinking but it was leaving "water spots" on the portafilter, etc.

Backstory: When we moved to our current location, a rental house, it had straight municipal water: 350-400ppm for temp GH & KH. Using Chris' Coffee dual filter (1-filter and 1-carbon) did a great job: ~80ppm temp GH & KH.

All was fine until the landlord had a sodium-ion softener installed. The water, although "safe to drink", is just nasty tasting...above and beyond the slight salinity to it (<20ppm temp hardness). So, not wanting to return to filling the tank each day on my Londinium LI, I dove down yet another rabbit hole: 5-gallon jugs + Shurflo pump + accumulator; actually works great albeit not as handy as straight plumb-in to house water...but no compare to filling the machine's water tank each day.

Right now I'm still using CG spring water and running it through the same dual filter system from Chris' Coffee. But I might just move to 5-gallon jugs of "drinking water" that typically (Arrowhead for instance) have a 50-80ppm for TDS and save the filter expense.

hmmm, I went with the Crystal Geyser Natural Alpine at the recommendation of Jim's water FAQs. Unfortunately, I haven't had a chance to test it, I'm waiting for my next test kit to arrive from amazon. Are you using this setup from CC, https://www.chriscoffee.com/Water-Softe ... ftsysg.htm? It sounds like that might get me where I need to be. As you said, I'm concerned that my water might end up too soft if I use the whole home system.

FWIW, the system that is inactive but in place is this one http://www.wrintl.com/hydro.asp without the RO filtration components, though I could purchase those and have them re-installed.

gophish wrote:hmmm, I went with the Crystal Geyser Natural Alpine at the recommendation of Jim's water FAQs. Unfortunately, I haven't had a chance to test it, I'm waiting for my next test kit to arrive from amazon. Are you using this setup from CC, https://www.chriscoffee.com/Water-Softe ... ftsysg.htm?

Yes.

This thread needs more burros, so I figured I should add a post ....

spressomon wrote:FYI Crystal Geyser Spring Water tests out at 145-150ppm for temporary GH & KH. We love it for drinking but it was leaving "water spots" on the portafilter, etc.

(I do like your avatar, spressoman.)

gophish wrote:I went with the Crystal Geyser Natural Alpine at the recommendation of Jim's water FAQs.

May be worth poiunting out here that there are six different bottling sources for Crystal Geyser Alpine Spring Water ®, and the water is very different from each source. You can get the reports for each plant via the links on this FAQ.

Their reports show very soft water (total hardness of 7.6 mg/l) for their Moultonborough, NH plant, but moderately hard water (170 mg/l) for their Johnstown, NY plant. Water from the Olancha and Shasta plants are in pretty good agreement with the SCAA standard, with Olancha pushing the acidic side of acceptable pH, and Shasta on the low end of acceptable calcium hardness.

Thanks, I did look at that link and saw the values of both the CA bottling facilities prior to purchasing, figuring that's where it would come from in AZ stores. Come to think about it though, I don't think I actually checked the label to confirm which bottling facility it was.

CG bottled water aside, it sounds like a whole home softening and filtration system that targets 0 grains total hardness is probably not favorable? And that the filter + softener system that CC sells (linked above) would probably get my incoming water supply where it needs to be?

I guess I'm just trying to make things as ideal as possible, but there are a lot of unknowns as to what the water properties will be after they have been through the various softener and filter options. Does anyone in AZ or areas with similar water have any input to the system they have used and what water values it produced? Or does anyone have any experience with a whole home softening system like the one I can get running again, and its effects on water supply?

Here's Crystal Geyser's water analysis, here in CA they draw from the same massive reserve that is Mt Shasta Spring Water (a company I once worked for many years ago). If your water doesn't taste or smell bad, I'd rather have your mineral content to start with, than the much softer water I have here.



http://crystalgeyserasw.com/docs/Bottle ... Shasta.pdf

Thanks Tom, that is the water analysis I was referring to in my previous post. I'm using the machine in tank mode now with the CG bottled water (I need to confirm from which bottling facility when I get home) at the suggestion of Jim's Water FAQs. I would like to move away from this and plumb the machine, but am still not clear as to if I would be better of using:

A) Chris' Coffee or equivalent in-line softening + filtration system

B) Getting my whole home softening and filtration system running again, which targets 0 grains hardness, but the manufacturer cannot provide me any additional water analysis as to what values are typically achieved specific to carbonate hardness or alkalinity, and plumbing from that with or without an inline filter to the machine.

C) Some other option or that I'm over thinking this way too much.

I guess part of what I don't understand is if water softening systems like the one Chris sells are designed to output "X" value of hardness regardless of what hardness goes in, and you simply need to change or recharge the filters more if you have harder incoming, or if the softening systems will soften "Y" number of grains regardless of what comes in, such that 10>4 and 9>3, in the case of said system removing 6 gpg.

I know our city water in Phoenix is hard, I'm just unclear of what I should do to get it to where it needs to be to protect my machine. Incoming city water supply tests:
Lowest and Highest Detected Alkalinity: 117ppm - 187ppm, Average: 152ppm
Lowest and Highest detected TDS: 328ppm - 774ppm, Average: 551ppm
Average pH: 7.9
Average Total Hardness: 240ppm or 14grain,
Total Hardness Lowest and Highest Detected Values: 190ppm/11grain - 289ppm/17grain

So, you can see it's a pretty wide range, but the temperature range of the incoming water supply also varies between 53* and 95*F. I'm happy with our incoming water supply otherwise, I just want to do what's best for the machine and the quality of espresso. Our drinking water tastes great passing through the refrigerator cartridge filter, and I don't really have any complaints of the water quality elsewhere in the household.