I recently had a nearly identical decision to make. I've read for hours and hours. As previously mentioned by others I don't see a bad choice here, but one may be better for you than the other options based on price, ergonomics, aesthetics, retailer, performance, quality....

When I started looking @ a $2K DB it sent shivers down my back. I felt like I was marrying the thing as I'm going to (have to?) live with it for a long time. You just will not see a GS/3 on my countertop next year. I started out excited but that slowly changed to analysis paralysis.

After all my reading I had satisfied my curiosity about everything above other than lingering questions about the specifics of quality (for me in this context quality refers to materials, parts, and build quality).

Quality is alluded to in many posts, but there are rarely as many specifics as I would have liked. What I've seen are typically dogmatic assertions like XYZ has better quality with little or no evidence provided to support the assertion. It could be that XYZ has better quality, but the dogmatic assertion wasn't doing it for me. I wanted something more objective.

I wanted to track down what, if any, the quality differences were, specifically. But how? I chose to contact the retailers for the three machines I was most interested in: BIII-R, VBM DD, & Duetto II. I stated bluntly that I was interested in XYZ, but was considering the other two. What makes the unit YOU sell better than the other two? After reading through the reviews here on HB I had some specific questions I would ask about materials, parts, and build quality. Once I had all three responses I was in a better place to evaluate the quality differences and a clearer choice emerged (of course quality was factored with the other criteria above).

Now, I'm not asserting that asking retailers is the end-all-be-all reference for knowing all there is to know. But, short of starting a flame war by starting a thread "Which has best quality, XYZ, PDQ, or ABC?" I haven't come up with anything better to date. Of course, I've already been reading about all three machines for hours on end and have that information playing in the background of my mind as I take in the new/additional info. Also, in this case of these machines the retailers are exceptionally familiar with the product (frequently boasting a high degree of input on the product's very design) and with the other products too. So, I think it's a valid source of information.

If you're interested in quality then you could pursue the same strategy for discovery or another. If you find another please share it as while I'm comfortable my decision, it's not set in stone yet.

uscfroadie wrote:Would you mind posting a video of your Mini Vivaldi steaming 8 oz water with a thermometer installed so we can get an estimate on the time needed to bring 8 ounces from the measuring standard of 40 degrees to 140? From there we can compare it to a regular Vivaldi to see how the boiler size affects the performance.

From what I 've seen, the boiler size has no effect.

My Mini takes a little over 20 seconds to do 8 oz with the 4 hole tip.

I'd actually prefer if it took longer.

Endo wrote:From what I 've seen, the boiler size has no effect.

Not for your first drink . . . no. Boiler size has little-to-no effect. But for your second . . . .

zin1953 wrote:Not for your first drink . . . no. Boiler size has little-to-no effect. But for your second . . . .

I have no issue steaming back to back drinks.

The heating element on the Mini is a huge 1250 watts (same as the regular Vivaldi) but the boiler is half the size at 1.2L (which is only half full).

In other words, it can increase pressure as fast as it's decreasing.

Here's a video of a short steaming using a 4 hole tip.

I was just wondering, what are the details of your back to back routine? Are we talking a few 8 oz. lattés, or are we talking 5 or 6 12 oz. drinks as fast as you can?

Don't get me wrong--I am confident that the steam capacity is excellent, but I have trouble believing that the 1250W element can keep up with steaming lattés back to back--there's a catch. Either it eventually bogs down, or it's 'slow' (take that as you will). Otherwise, why would commercial establishments use 220V dual boilers with 8L boilers and 3500W elements?

1.2L is smaller than your average $1500 HX machine boiler. But, the upshot of the double boiler configuration is that you can easily run it at 1.5-1.8 bar without burning all your shots and having 20 oz. cooling flushes, so you get a lot more punch per liter. Still, the element's power rating is actually less than an average HX machine's element, which would clock in more in the range of 1300-1400W--You can't break 20A on a 110V machine, and you've got another boiler to keep hot. Those machines are good steamers, but not in the same league as a big commercial machine that can pound out 20 oz. 'lattes' in 30 seconds.

IIRC, The Mini Vivaldi comes standard with an 0.9 mm tip, which is nearly 40% slower for 12 oz milk drinks than the 1.2 mm tip standard on the Vivaldi II, that comparison being done on the full size Vivaldi II. It's an obvious point to make that this tip is also much easier to learn on, and also much easier to steam small milk drinks with, but it's worth noting that once you get the hang of steaming, you'll be spending more time behind the machine at the dinner party. That may or may not be important to the OP.

Edit: if anyone with a Mini Vivaldi II has used it with the larger tip, I'd be curious to hear about it. It's quite a big tip suited to a crowd of milk-drinkers, and it'd be worth knowing for buyers how well the Mini keeps up--long enough for the buyer to convince his friends that huge milk drinks aren't worth the calories, I hope.

What Nicholas speaks is truth. Once upon a time I thought the Bricoletta with it's 1.5L 1900w boiler was a good steamer. These days it's relatively annoyingly slow, can't even finish steaming the milk for SO's drive to work quad shot 16oz mocha by the end of 2nd shot pulling. (Started steaming immediately after start 2nd pull) Of course have become accustomed to being able to start a shot and being able to then start steaming and finish steaming for up to a 16oz (largest size at my cafe) before the end of the shot my 3gr Linea. If steaming for a beverage can't be completed in the time it takes for the shot then steaming is slow in my book.

Back to backs entertaining even bigger problem with smaller boilers: that is specifically boiler needing to re-fill more often which of course nose dives steam pressure causing waiting. Not much depending on heating element size, but waiting none the less. When it comes to steaming efficiency, bigger boiler is better period. On a large commercial machine steam boiler re-fill barely affects steaming performance at all. 12L boiler with 4000W heater dropping from 1.5bar to ~1.2bar after re-fill still leaves boo-koo steam power.

But for general home use most any of the prosumer machines steam ok. If seriously into entertaining look for the biggest baddest steam boiler you can afford.

Well I am pulling my Promac apart and WOW! This is a beauty! The boiler is huge. It is a HX machine, but, what a piece of work! It is so easy to get to everything I am surprised I didn't take it apart already. I talked to one of the tech's at a espresso repair place today about upgraditis and he stated that with a minor PID upgrade on the boiler itself (forget the head) I could get rid of my clankaty Sirai PS and keep the brew temp consistent. His opinion is the DB machines are fine but over rated in the "real" world.
I am already pulling fantastic shots on it already, so, any improvement in the cup will be just ducky. I am grinding a bit finer to slow the delivery and having good results as well there. My main complaint is the foaming aspect of the steam wand and I think I can rectify this with some elbow grease. I probably need a boiler de-cal so my sensor can keep the water level down in the boiler and them my steam wont be so wet.

Anyway, my point in writing this is I am glad I bought my "commercial" 1 group HX machine. Just today I was able to try shots from 3 different places in SF and my coffee is superior by a quantum factor. I haven't pulled the "mud" I have seen some guys do with the DB's but I bet I could with the combination of elements. Just the rotary pump and electronics are worth what I paid for it and it is 110 volt to boot! It is built like a brick shthse. The steam volume is fantastic and if I can figure out a way to get the moisture down, it will be cloud 9. I think the only "real" upgrade would be another commercial machine in the 6-10K range. 220v to boot. And a 3 phase Nino, a coffee plantation on the big island, SF sample roaster, yadda, yadda, yadda... OMG! It will never END!

shadowfax wrote:
Don't get me wrong--I am confident that the steam capacity is excellent, but I have trouble believing that the 1250W element can keep up with steaming lattés back to back--there's a catch. Either it eventually bogs down, or it's 'slow' (take that as you will).

Yes. You are right. It's not a commercial machine, but in home use (or light pro use, like a bar or an art gallery) it keeps up easily making Lattes at a pace of about 1 minute apart. This is as fast as I can move anyway

shadowfax wrote:
IIRC, The Mini Vivaldi comes standard with an 0.9 mm tip, which is nearly 40% slower for 12 oz milk drinks than the 1.2 mm tip standard on the Vivaldi II, that comparison being done on the full size Vivaldi II. It's an obvious point to make that this tip is also much easier to learn on, and also much easier to steam small milk drinks with, but it's worth noting that once you get the hang of steaming, you'll be spending more time behind the machine at the dinner party. That may or may not be important to the OP.

Actually, both the Mini-Vivaldi and regular Vivaldi II from Chris Coffee now come with the 4 hole 0.9mm tip.

But, if you buy directly from LaSpaziale (like most people outside the US, like me), you get the larger 1.2mm 3 hole tip. So the Mini was actually designed around this larger tip.

That said, the big 3 hole tip only works for 20oz pitchers. I use the smaller 4 hole for 16 oz pitcher and actually have a custom 1 hole tip which I use with a 12 oz pitcher for Latte art.

The Vivaldi sucks for making Latte art quality foam. I've yet to see someone make a great multiple rosetta pattern with foam from this machine. With my Silvia, it was 100 times easier.

After more than a little thought I just pulled the trigger on a New Izzo Alex Duetto II and a Super Jolly from Chris.

Thanks to everyone who contributed.

Keith

Endo wrote:The Vivaldi sucks for making Latte art quality foam. I've yet to see someone make a great multiple rosetta pattern with foam from this machine. With my Silvia, it was 100 times easier.

Seldom have I seen lack of quality micro-foam being the fault of a machine. Mismatched tip size (overall tip opening diameter, not necessarily number of tips) for boiler size and milk amount to be sure, but that's not the machine's fault but the operator. Once accustomed to greater steaming power matched to proper tip size for amount to be steamed it becomes quite easy to steam great micro-foam in less time than it takes for the shot to pull. Silvia isn't close to the same league of machines with really good steam capacity.