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What HX espresso machine will suit me best?

Postby haglund89 on Thu Jul 14, 2011 9:55 am

Ok so i have decided on a HX machine, i want the HX hump instead of the the flat profile on the DB.
I have been looking at the new Rocket Espresso Cellini Evoluzione. I love the looks but that is about what i know about it. I have never used a HX machine before, only a Silvia. I want a rotary pump machine as its nice and quite. My budget is at 1700 Euro, give or take 50 euro.

Will i achieve this HP hump like on the Cimbali Junior Casa DT1. And will i be able to create a flat profile with this machine as well, or is it just the HX hump? How do i create these different profiles with this machine?

And last but not least, is there a better option for me out there? I will almost only do espressos and rarely capp and lattes, so the taste in espresso is what matters.

*Edit* Almost forgot, I will buy a EricS thermocouple with any machine i decide to order *Edit*

Regards;

Fredrik
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Postby Ian_G on Thu Jul 14, 2011 1:39 pm

haglund89 wrote:Ok so i have decided on a HX machine, i want the HX hump instead of the the flat profile on the DB.
I have been looking at the new Rocket Espresso Cellini Evoluzione. I love the looks but that is about what i know about it.

Regards;

Fredrik


Some information in a pdf at the bottom of this page: http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/coffeemac...achine.asp
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Postby boar_d_laze on Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:49 pm

No flat temperature profile with the La Cimbali Casa. It's an HX like all HXs -- even if it is best of breed.

I'm not really familiar with the Evoluzione, so can't do a head to head comparison for you.

Make no mistake about it, the Casa is not "prosumer," it's a true commercial design. But it really works in the home. It's very consistent, very "ergo," everything works, there aren't any gimmicks, no shortcuts, there's plenty of mass, etc. In short, it's well-designed.

One of the places the Casa shines is its fast rebound following a flush. I find that this allows me fairly good precision controlling temperatures. It's not a PID controlled double boiler, but you can fine tune by listening to the flush and timing your pull.

Perhaps the largest difference between the Casa and earlier models of the Junior DT/1, is the line pressure pre-infusion. You can run it from 2 - 4 seconds (depending on how long you hold the button down), and also have the option of just starting the pump. The other differences are a new pressure gauge which shows both boiler and pump pressure (nice, I guess), and a modified steam tip (at least if you buy it from Chris), which is a little slower than the old tip -- about 15 seconds to froth 7 oz of milk, and therefore somewhat more home-barista friendly.

The Casa is an incredibly responsive machine. If you're using good coffee, grinding it properly, and have good skills it will consistently reward you with an insight into all of the nuances. Still, with pre-infusion, the Casa doesn't place quite the same demands on filling the pf as the older DT/1s.

Buy a Junior and getting by with crap coffee is a thing of the past. It's painful.

If you buy a Casa, you'll NEED a really good grinder. A Max Hybrid is not overkill by any means. Really, nothing is too good.

The Casa's pre-infusion provides similar advantages to an E-61 group. It makes it a little less brutal than previous Juniors in terms of punishing minor distribution errors, but mostly it just makes for better coffee if everything else is done right. And it is controllable. If you want more, hold the button longer. If you don't want it, don't use it.

At the risk of repetition, temperature control is relatively easy for an HX because the sounds and timing are so consistent and so definite. However, screw up and you will know it. Junior can be a harsh mistress.

True for most if not all machines, and most assuredly true for the Junior: A rotary pump will not make better coffee than a vibratory. It's advantages are other -- quieter, harder wearing, etc.

Whether you choose the Giotto or the La Cimbali, go fully plumbed-in, including the drain if at all possible. The Evoluzione is available either way, and there are ways to work around the Casa's plumbed-in requirements. But the easier it is to use and drain water, the better control you'll exercise over temperature.

It's an easy machine to keep very clean. There are few exterior sharp edges. Parts are well placed and accessible. Components are all top of the line (although all p-stats have their drawbacks and detractors).

If you don't need a lot of cup height between the drip tray and the group, you don't need unlimited steam, and you're willing to master HX skills (pretty easy, really), the Casa will produce consistently good shots as well as any single group machine at any price; including the La Marzocco GS3 and the Elektra Sixties.

Bottom Line: It's so good that even though it's very expensive, it's a huge bargain. Yes, it's AN ultimate residential machine. And yes, there are others.

Hope this helps,
BDL
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Postby Louis on Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:06 pm

I understand you want to upgrade from the Silvia to a HX machine. As I also did the same three months ago, I would say "good move". I now have something I dreamed off: consistency.

OTOH, what grinder will you use with it?

Upgrading the accessory to the grinder (ie the espresso machine) is a good idea but you won't really get improvement unless you also upgrade the main component (ie the grinder). Else, you might find yourself having consistently mediocre espresso.

CoffeeGeek: "Espresso Machine Buying Guide - Don't Skimp on the Grinder"

If you have already taken this into account, please disregard.
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Postby haglund89 on Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:44 pm

Hm the La Cimbali Casa is a little out of my price range too bad, will i be able to create the same hump on the La Cimbali as on the Evo?

As for the grinder im using a Mazzer super jolly so its not a issue with the grinder.
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Postby erics on Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:23 pm

In absolutely no particular order, I would look strongly at the following machines:

Rocket Cellini w/ vibe pump
Bezzera BZ10 w/o PID
Vibiemme Domobar Hx

The Bezzera BZ10 would put a lot of rotaries to shame as regards noise level and it definitely has a vibe pump. For sure, rotary pump machines are "quieter" than their vibe pump relatives but you really need to compare apples to apples. Machine noise level is determined by how much the manufacturer "cares".

This hx temp "hump" you speak of is APPARENTLY unique to the Cimbali line. It is a function of hx size, grouphead mass, and, of course, boiler/hx temperatures. It is a complicated situation, to say the least. While it may be possible to replicate it with some other machine, that would involve quite a bit of laboooooratory work.

If you can obtain a Quickmill Anita in Sweden equivalent to that currently offered by our US distributor, Chris' Coffee, I would certainly add it to the list.
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Postby haglund89 on Fri Jul 15, 2011 5:53 am

Do you recommend the vibe pump cause of the slower pressure rampup (longer preinfusion i guess?) Hm okey so the Rocket Espresso Cellini Evoluzione will create a worse espresso than for example the Vibiemme Domobar HX?
What im trying to say is that money to a certain extent 1700 euro is not a problem and is not the more expensive Rocket Espresso Cellini Evoluzione suppose to be a "better" upgraded version of the older Vibiemme Domobar HX?
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Postby erics on Fri Jul 15, 2011 6:46 am

Once you move into the range of espresso machines discussed most often on this forum, the quality of the espresso is more dependent on the beans selected and the patience/care of the person preparing same. It takes a while - maybe a couple of months - to become intimate with any machine chosen.

I happen to favor machine serviceability - the ease with which components can be replaced and the ready availability of those components.

The Rocket machines are an improved version of the former ECM home machine line.
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Postby haglund89 on Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:14 am

When you mention the Vibiemme Domobar Hx do you mean just the Vibiemme Domobar Super that is reviewed on this site and seems to produce a really good espresso or will its little brother La Vibiemme Junior HX be a better choice?
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Postby erics on Fri Jul 15, 2011 8:18 am

The one that has been reviewed on this site. I have no experience with its sibling.
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