mtnwoman wrote:Any recommendations/suggestions on what I might read or do to shorten the learning curve will be greatly appreciated!

The Buyer's Guide to the Andreja Premium is a good start since it has the same group as the Vetrano. I'll create a separate Buyer's Guide for the Vetrano, but it will share a lot from the earlier report. You can read my research notes in the Bench.

RapidCoffee wrote:Dan Kehn's "HX Love" is required reading to understand the whys and hows of the dreaded HX flush (just kidding, it's really easy).

Lately I'm becoming quite fond of Bob's keep-it-simple approach:

BobY wrote:

1. If the machine has been idle for a while, flush 6 oz.
2. After three minutes, flush 2 oz.
3. Wait 40 seconds and pull the shot.

That's it!

Though I observe the water dance for step 1 and the wait is 30 seconds.

mtnwoman wrote:John,

Which grinder do you have? Any suggestions for what/how to dial in the proper setting for getting started? I'm getting a couple of pounds of Lavazza (sp?) from chriscoffee. I've also ordered some Toscano from counter culture (for when I know what I'm doing!)

I'll be using the 5 gal. jug and flojet for now. Ordered the flojet from chriscoffee. Also have the timer and I guess the detergent (cafiza machine cleaner). I'm going to try to cheat and use one of those espro tampers that is supposed to click or something at 30 lb. pressure. I want to make everything as easy as possible, not only for my learning curve but so my 13 year old daughter can learn, too. Everything is due to arrive Tuesday.

Any recommendations/suggestions on what I might read or do to shorten the learning curve will be greatly appreciated!

I use a Mazzer Mini-E grinder. I'd have considered a Macap stepless/doserless if they'd been out when I got my equipment (the Cimbali Junior was on my short list, too). All three of these would be fine choices.

Coffees, like wines, are very individual choices, and if you read through these forums, you'll get many ideas on things to try. While I get my coffee locally or sometimes roast my own, you might try Intelligensia Black Cat, and one of the Daterra Reserves.

I've actually tried an Espro tamper, and have to say I think you'll learn more on your own with a normal one.

The single most significant change I made that dramatically improved my espresso (both quality and consistency) was using the Weiss distribution technique. You'll find an article on it here. Try it out!

The single most significant change I made that dramatically improved my espresso (both quality and consistency) was using the Weiss distribution technique. You'll find an article on it here. Try it out!

Well, I have been experimenting for the past couple of days. The milk steaming/frothing is a breeze! I'm still grappling with the espresso. I have re-read many of the articles and have some more ideas for tomorrow morning. I just read the article about the WDT, and will add that to my list of things to try.

Basically, everything I've brewed so far has been bitter, but I'm still way down on the learning curve.

Well, I have been experimenting for the past couple of days. The milk steaming/frothing is a breeze! I'm still grappling with the espresso. I have re-read many of the articles and have some more ideas for tomorrow morning. I just read the article about the WDT, and will add that to my list of things to try.

Basically, everything I've brewed so far has been bitter, but I'm still way down on the learning curve.

... hmm ... interesting ... are you getting bitter espresso with the LaVazza stuff? If so, the beans are, doubtless, the problem. I betcha Chris throws them in as stuff that you can just waste perfecting your technique. Best to get some fresh stuff locally.

I've actually tried an Espro tamper, and have to say I think you'll learn more on your own with a normal one.

My Espro has sidelined my regular tamper ... but probably more out of comfort than anything else. For one person, I can see that a normal tamper is fine, but if more than one person is using a machine, I would want everything standardised. I used to work in a cafe where the other baristi would sometimes change the grind and sometimes change the dose and/or tamp. It was fine if one barista stayed on the machine for the whole session, but the instant that there was a changeover the grinder had to be dialled in again. Silly stuff.

There's no reason to think of the Espro as a tool, a toy or a gimmick. It's a top-notch piece of kit. But maybe a little excessive in some situations!

PS. John; how awesome is the mini-e?! I can't get over how little mess there is!

... hmm ... interesting ... are you getting bitter espresso with the LaVazza stuff? If so, the beans are, doubtless, the problem. I betcha Chris throws them in as stuff that you can just waste perfecting your technique. Best to get some fresh stuff locally.

I'm going to be really torqued if I've gone through all this stuff and it's the BEANS! I've ordered some Toscano (based on Dan's recommendation) but it hasn't arrived yet. So, is Lavazza a bitter coffee?

I tried the WDT this morning, but still no luck. I noticed that it takes much longer than 25 seconds to pull a shot, so I'm going to adjust the grind again and try again. It just seems to take a while before anything starts coming out.

If you're getting bitterness, you may be overextracting (perhaps due to grind), extracting at too high a temperature, and/or the beans may be stale. If you're just getting started, my recommendation for a good, forgiving coffee is the Intelligentsia Black Cat. With the way they roast/ship upon receiving your order, you're practically assured the freshness will be optimal by the time you receive them. You might get a couple of pounds for practice -- as long as you approach the process like wine tasting, and don't scarf down every shot you pull!

The best thing, of course, is finding a roaster you like in your area, who does good work, has a blend you like, and where you'll know when the batch you're buying was roasted. Or doing it yourself, although that's a learning process all it itself.

One of the things I was able to confirm after I'd suspected is how temperature-stable and predictible the Vetrano is. Wishing to hone my technique as finely as possible, I ordered a Scace device and digital thermometer, but because the Scace was severely backordered, I didn't get it until I had already found the process that works for me. When I was finally able to do some measurements, I found that I was consistently able to get a good temperature curve reliably with what I was doing. Dan Kehn and others have posted on how they use their Vetranos, and I found a lot of good info there. The real lesson is to use your taste buds to fine-tune technique, after you understand what your visual and sensory observations mean.

Have fun!

Note to Luca: I really like the Mini-E, though sometimes I wish it had a worm screw adjustment. Still, no complaints.

mtnwoman wrote:I'm going to be really torqued if I've gone through all this stuff and it's the BEANS! I've ordered some Toscano (based on Dan's recommendation) but it hasn't arrived yet. So, is Lavazza a bitter coffee?

I tried the WDT this morning, but still no luck. I noticed that it takes much longer than 25 seconds to pull a shot, so I'm going to adjust the grind again and try again. It just seems to take a while before anything starts coming out.

As John notes, high temps can result in bitter brews. May I assume you're flushing overheated water from the HX when your machine is idle? If not, this is essential on HX machines.

Furthermore, long extractions may cause bitterness due to reduced flow rate through the HX. The water has more time to heat up and resulting brew temps will be higher. You should definitely adjust your grind (and possibly your dose) for a 25-30 second extraction. Since your shots are taking much longer than 25 seconds, try grinding coarser (and/or use slightly less coffee in the filter basket). When you extract 1.5-2oz in 25-30 seconds, you're in the right ballpark.

The WDT will not help with these issues (or improve the flavor of stale beans ).

Rapid Coffee & John,

I am doing the cooling flush that was recommended. In fact, I have tried the "water dance" and the 6 oz/2 oz/40 second routine (which sure does use a lot of water!). I scrupulously measured & timed this morning and noted that nothing started coming out until 10 seconds into the extraction (is this normal?). I used 18 g. of grind. I shut it off at 25 seconds and had a little over an ounce. The pressure was around 7.9 - 8.3 bars (it varied as the pump kicked in). The crema on the top had the dual coloring that I think it is supposed to have (versus blonde). It was better, but still kinda bitter for my taste. My Toscano arrived today, so I'll give that a shot tomorrow morning. I've also ordered a bottomless filter, as I suspect that my tamp is not as even as it should be. (BTW, what if you tamp and then see that it is uneven? Do you mess things up if you re-tamp? Should you dump the grinds back in the doser and try again?)

As to the beans/freshness idea...well, let's just say that my moniker "mtnwoman" is not because I live on a mountain just outside of a metropolitan area! We're in the boonies here...but enjoy seeing the elk and breathing the air!!

I'm convinced that I have an excellent equipment set-up, but the Barista still has a lot of learning to do.

mtnwoman wrote:I am doing the cooling flush that was recommended. In fact, I have tried the "water dance" and the 6 oz/2 oz/40 second routine (which sure does use a lot of water!).

Sounds like you need to flush more. Instead of measuring, try listening. When it stops gurgling then pull your shot.
If you wait after the flush then there's a good chance the water reheats a little too much.

mtnwoman wrote:The pressure was around 7.9 - 8.3 bars (it varied as the pump kicked in).

Sounds about right to me.

mtnwoman wrote:As to the beans/freshness idea...

Last time I tried LaVazza it wasn't fresh at all.
I hope you enjoy the Toscano!

I like to run a little higher pressure personally. I run 9-9.5 bar. The dip you see in your pressure is due to the heating element kicking on during the shot. One of the downfalls of a 110v machine, not quite enough electric to run both the heating element and pump without one of the two suffering.

8-10 seconds from the pump engage to the first drops is about right. Try dropping you dose just a hair. I find 1.75oz is just about perfect on my machines, but your results may vary. I go for 1.75 oz in 28 seconds on most of my blends, but not all blends work the same.