Clarification of the question as too long for topic line-----> "what does a high end (e.g. >$6000 MSRP) espresso machine offer that the "prosumer" $2000 to $3500 MSRP does not?"

Example of what I am thinking of >=$6k machines : Syncra, Slayer, GS3, Speedster, etc.
Examples of what I am thinking of $2000 to $3500 machines: Vibiemme DD v3, Expobar Brewtus V4, La Spaziale VivaldiII, Alex Duetto V3 etc. (sorry for any poor spelling).

I've googled search this site and been getting bits of answers but no specific post/thread that answers this question. If there is specific post that answers this question, I apologize for my sucky search skills. I did watch Dan's (HB) videos dated Fall 2012 that touched on $2000 to $3500 vs. the commercial LaMarzocco....i.e. subtle differences if I am correctly summarizing.

Let me offer my own answers (in no particular order) are >=$6k machines:
* can simultaneous brew and steam nearly as strong as cafe machines
* bring out some very subtle nuance in flavor
* semi-customizable aesthetics (e.g. Slayer, Speedster)
* build quality & craftsmanship (e.g. Slayer, Speedster internals especially and from the pics on Coffee Geek and here the later's a REAL looker and amazing attention to detail)
* cachet [e.g. to use another car analogy (and I LOVE cars) and let's say the $6K machine is the Ferrari 458 ; but a professional driver with a Porsche Cayman S (analogous to $2000-$3500 machine) will be able to detect the driving differences between it and the 458. Me detect the differences.....uhh no. And hence I do not own the Speedster (which IMO is beautiful, work of art and ...... (

Have I interpreted what I have read on HB site correctly? Are my answers correct in your opinion?

Thanks in advance,
Michael

BACKGROUND (it's long as I touch type decently; feel free to skip)
* First off, thanks to Dan for this wonderful site. I read and learn 99.9% of time and 0.1% time post as my knowledge base w.r.t. coffees and espresso is novice.

* Scary thought is I am considered the "coffee expert" among my neighbors. But when we get to talking with them I put my big boy pants on . We have get togethers ~monthly & rotate houses for hors d'oeuvres and cocktails and I never miss a chance to serve coffee or espresso or espresso based drink. Since they are at nighttime and only two of them drink espresso, I get by just fine with the Alexia with PID paired with stock Super Jolly and now Pharos. I've turned one of them to this site. One has asked me above such question in the past (and he is very wealthy and I suspect can afford such >$6k machines w/o even blinking). Also got to thinking of same question reading "Gfchronus" thread With 2 toddlers, should I feel guilty about buying a La Marzocco GS/3?

*Realize I repeat to everyone (and follow myself) Dan's statement barista & coffee then grinder THEN machine in order of importance for great espresso.

*My espresso consumption is 1-2 straight shots per day and Boss has one cappuccino per day. Kitchen is her domain and so I get small corner counter space. When we disagree, she will bring up how big the Alexia is and how unsightly it and my grinders are (I take up 4.5 linear feet out of 35 linear feet countertop space ?!); so no chance getting Vibiemme DD V3 or my dream Speedster. And I think would be dorky to have espresso cart in my home theater basement while guest upstairs in the large kitchen. I know QM makes Hx (?Anita) in same/nearly same chassis. But if I could get DB/Hx then I want prodigious steam power as the ONLY times I make multiple consecutive drinks is Thanksgiving (12-24 per 6 hours). In-laws know good caps and lattes take time from their son-in-law's Alexia. Also for past two years I borrow neighbor's Silvia to use as milk frother.

mdmvrockford wrote:Are my answers correct in your opinion?

I agree with your summary. And with Jim's for that matter. I offered my soundbite 5 C's in Commercial vs. Prosumer... what are the classifications?

HB wrote:I eluded to this point in the previous paragraph: Top-performing commercial espresso machines, generally speaking, perform their jobs rapidly and consistently with minimal fuss. Of the five C's this site discusses in reviews (capability, consistency, convenience, capacity, construction), consistency and capacity under load are where commercial equipment separate themselves from the rest of the pack.

As I mentioned in the last couple review cycles, I've catered espresso/cappuccinos/lattes at a local car dealership's "cars & coffee" event. They've been more popular than expected; last time I went through more than 4 pounds of coffee in 2-1/2 hours. Somewhere between 80 and 100 drinks? I catered with both the Izzo Alex Duetto V3 and the La Marzocco GS/3. While the Duetto performed admirably under load, with such a long drink list order, I came to appreciate the difference between a full-on commercial espresso machine and a semi-commercial. For example, with the GS/3, I would start the extraction, fill the pitcher, then start steaming. I would finish steaming around 15 seconds later, just about the time the extraction was finished. The seconds you save at each step with a commercial unit add up.

Returning to your question, the commercial models offer greater consistency and capacity than their prosumer counterparts. For most home baristas, that's a minor consideration, since consistency can be improved by barista workarounds (e.g., warmup flushes) that the line barista doesn't have time for, and prosumer capacity is more than enough for most home baristas.

The "prosumer" class didn't even exist until just over twenty years ago with the introduction of the Bezzera BZ99, Livia 90 and a few other machines. Ever since, the line between "true commercial" and "prosumer" has become increasingly blurred.

I think there are a number of characteristics which separate the sheep from the goats, including build quality; ease of repair; internal lay-out; quality of the group; "duty cycle;" boiler capacities; recovery time; "touch;" all the things Dan mentioned; and a bunch of other stuff which isn't leaping to mind at the moment. In any case, as ever-better prosumers come to market there's more and more overlap; and for some reason, the phrase "the line becomes increasingly blurred" leaps. It's almost as though there's an echo.

I'm not sure what you mean by "high end," but can't accept price over $6K as the sole criterion. The figure might work for DBs, but uber / "true commercial" / high-end machines aren't exclusively DB. They come as HX and lever designs as well. The price begins at around $3K, not $6K.

In terms of whether it's worthwhile or not to choose a "high end" machine over a "prosumer," by way of personal example:

• Would I rather have a La Cimbali M21 Casa than a Rocket R58? Yes.
• Does production capacity factor into that evaluation? No.
• How about the related "recovery time?" A little.
• How about aesthetic stuff, like looks and touch? Yes. Huge.
• Other aesthetic stuff? Sure, lots of things. Just as a for instance, the Cimbali showcases my painfully and painstakingly developed HX barista skills in a way the R58 doesn't.
• Do I believe I can make better coffee with the Cimbali? Yes, but that's not as clear as the relative levels of desire. It may not be a universal reaction, but I (and remember, I'm the buyer) find E-61 DBs flat compared to HXs with (cough) high-end groups. Speaking of HX barista skills, I like the way the Cimbali allows me to temperature profile by shaping the "hump."
• Have you ever looked inside a Cimbali? I have.
• Everything else being equal, would I trade my Cimbali for a GS/3? No. I feel that my machine and grinder are so good the machinery isn't a limiting factor in any way and I enjoy the hell out of the Casa.

Right machine for the right guy. Sometimes you get lucky, and sometimes the luck comes in the form of advice from Mary at Chris Coffee.

On a philosophical note:
If someone wants to buy a Slayer instead of a Silvia because she's afraid of "missing out," instead of forsaking the Siliva to set up a coffee bar with a Slayer -- a bar which we would lust after ourselves -- who are we to say that's bad? If someone finds the pressure profiling capacities of the Slayer, Speedster and Synesso Hydra interesting, is mere curiosity an H-B approved motive for buying so expensive a machine?

What do you say we leave purity tests to other forums?

Rich

boar_d_laze wrote:I'm not sure what you mean by "high end," but can't accept price over $6K as the sole criterion. The figure might work for DBs, but uber / "true commercial" / high-end machines aren't exclusively DB. They come as HX and lever designs as well. The price begins at around $3K, not $6K.

Rich, I should have clarified the topic line "uber-high machine". Also I was not nor implying heat exchanger should not be included in discussion of what I listed in original post as "prosumer" $2000 to $3500 machines.

Right machine for the right guy. Sometimes you get lucky, and sometimes the luck comes in the form of advice from Mary at Chris Coffee.

Small world. Mary of Chris Coffee told to me to stick my Alexia with PID (purchased from them) when I called asking what I would get upgrading to GS/3 given my use of the Alexia (i.e. max 3 drinks per day (2 straight espresso and one cappuccino).

HB wrote:As I mentioned in the last couple review cycles, I've catered espresso/cappuccinos/lattes at a local car dealership's "cars & coffee" event. They've been more popular than expected; last time I went through more than 4 pounds of coffee in 2-1/2 hours. Somewhere between 80 and 100 drinks? I catered with both the Izzo Alex Duetto V3 and the La Marzocco GS/3. While the Duetto performed admirably under load, with such a long drink list order, I came to appreciate the difference between a full-on commercial espresso machine and a semi-commercial. For example, with the GS/3, I would start the extraction, fill the pitcher, then start steaming. I would finish steaming around 15 seconds later, just about the time the extraction was finished. The seconds you save at each step with a commercial unit add up.

I wonder how many of people with the discretionary funds not blink twice getting "uber-high end" machine (i.e. over $6000 listed above) know your experience; purely asking out of curiosity. I could care less if someone buys "uber high end" espresso machine and does not use it nor appreciate its capabilities. I've grown quite accustomed to "urban show" "tool" or whichever descriptor for this (e.g. seeing someone who is clearly beginner level cyclist on >$10K Pinarello Dogma 2 with full Campagnolo Super Record gruppo, seeing non-driver own Porsche 911 Turbo).....keeps the espresso industry going and they are not hurting anyone else, not illegal and not morally wrong.

HB wrote:I agree with your summary. And with Jim's for that matter. I offered my soundbite 5 C's in Commercial vs. Prosumer... what are the classifications?

Doh! I hate it when I ask question that has been asked before Sorry for my sucky search skills Dan. I have committed to long term memory the 5 C's of commercial vs. prosumer (like the 4 M's of great espresso).

Rich, I should have clarified the topic line "uber-high machine". Also I was not nor implying heat exchanger should not be included in discussion of what I listed in original post as "prosumer" $2000 to $3500 machines.

Mike, I appreciate the clarification, but fear that I have not made my point clear.

That is, the $3000 - $4000 HX machines I listed in my response are not, in any way, "prosumer." While some people (me included) do buy them for home use, they were designed to be commercial; residential was not even a second thought. In addition, each of the machine I listed has pre-infusion, and a very stable and otherwise outstanding group; each a full step better than an E-61.

There is nothing these machines cannot do, other than a level of pressure profiling more sophisticated than pre-infusion, that any DB can. Nor can any machine perform nuts and bolts of making espresso and steaming milk any better.

A really fast barista might be able to beat the La Cimbali -- I can't -- if she were doing a lot of steaming, because it only has a 2.5L boiler; but I doubt anyone could beat the Astoria Divina 1, Elektra T1, Faema Enova, or Nuova Simonelli Appia without running ridiculous steam; and she would beat the crap out of any single group DB (other than the Slayer which is supposedly unbeatable) under the same circumstances.

Similarly, the internal lay outs, component quality, external ergonomics, "touch," and so on are the equal of anything on the market at any price.

Speaking of price: At this point, there is no prosumer machine in the US market with a street price greater than $3K.

In addition to their double-boiler designs the Slayer Single Group, Speedster, and Synesso Hydra Single Group include some degree of pressure profiling and are hand built on an individual basis. So perhaps those three things in combination are what you mean. If so, you've not only answered your own question but eliminated the La Marzocco GS/3 in stock configuration as well as the Synesso Cyncra from "high end espresso."

However, unless your definition of "high end" includes DB as sine qua non, the five HX machines -- which are "true commercial" by any standard -- must also be included within the "high end" rubric. Undoubtedly, someone familiar with them could make an equally good case for "high end" commercial levers.

(BTW: Group for group, lever machines can't be operated as quickly as "straight-pump" DBs and HXs. In addition to operating the lever itself, they require additional time to release the pressure from the lever group before removing the pf. The industry standard propaganda rates commercial lever capacity as 20 shots/hour, and commercial "straight pump" at 60.)

Finally, let me be very clear that I am not saying there is not adequate performance and/or aesthetic value in the exotics to justify their $10,000 prices. You're into SACD. You know there's a world of difference between the ultra high-end and the average; and you also know that there's a vast number of people who can't recognize it and will ridicule it instead.

Rich

boar_d_laze wrote: In addition to their double-boiler designs the Slayer Single Group, Speedster, and Synesso Hydra Single Group include some degree of pressure profiling

I wasn't aware that a stock Speedster could pressure profile. What are it's capabilities in that regard?

another_jim wrote:I have a Mack tractor/trailer you can buy as well. It's also an uber-performer, and totally different from anything that will fit in your garage.

I just want to be sure I'm clear on this. You're saying an LM Strada, for instance, would be an inappropriate choice for a home machine?

Rich