I was almost completely set on a HX machine (Rocket), but after much reading and analyzing my needs and current usage patterns, I'm not as sure as I was before. Where I live, water is very hard, and I use as much distilled bottled water as possible (adding in a cup or whatever is called to ensure minerals are present if the machine requires it). I'm not in a position to connect any machine to a water line, which would also require some kind of water filtration system because of the water profile in my area.

When speaking with reps selling machines, I really didn't think much of flushing the HX because I thought the amount was minimal. But seeing videos and instructions, I think I would be CONSTANTLY refilling an HX machine. Most of my pulls would be after a duration of time that would require a flush, so if I were to have say 4-5 coffees in a day, it would necessitate 4-5 full flushings?

Now, I understand that DB are more expensive, but to be honest, I AM willing to spend up to an additional $1000 (CDN) to get a DB if it means water consumption is greatly reduced (I could also cost out the bottled distilled water I order to achieve a net difference, which if I understood flushing properly - and there is always a possibility I didn't fully - would make the difference over time even less than that).

What is your thoughts on this?

I know there is some flushing required with a DB too, but from what I understand much much less. I greatly appreciate any support as this will be hopefully a long term investment! Thanks.

Dave

Thank you for the reply.

Just to clarify, I'm not a water conservationist! Looking at water consumption is more about practicality. If I had a water line, I don't think I would be considering the DB at this point because it eliminates the need to constantly refill the reservoir. Right now, I have cases of 4L water containers that I use for my current coffee machine, a compromise on easy to pour size versus a 20L jug. So if I didn't have that as part of my routine, I'd just run with the HX because additional water consumption is not an issue.

However, if going through the flushing routine would mean I would need to DAILY refill the reservoir (if not more), and stock much more water, then I'd be willing to consider a DB. I suppose one could consider the total cost of adding a plumb line and filtration system but I don't really want to go that route or drill into my kitchen countertop.

When I had a HX I flushed abt 2 oz at the start of the session. I never flushed for subsequent shots after watching what was happening with Eric's thermometer. I also did a quick one of < 1 oz when the session was done to clear the wash screen/group head.

Nunas wrote:I went through the same thought process for the same reasons and thought I needed (wanted?) a DB. In the end, I went with an HX, mostly due to cost, much greater choice and availability. You are right about using more water. For example, my Magister Stella needs a cooling flush of about 20 to 25 seconds to bring the temperature down to the 90-degrees C I prefer. On the other hand, a DB requires only a modest warming flush.

I have not measured the volume of water for the flush, but I'm guessing that I waste about half of what we need each time we make two double shots for our morning cappuccinos, as we only need to flush the once for both shots. While this sounds wasteful, it isn't really a lot of water. My HX has a reservoir and I pour in a small foaming jug full before starting, sometimes two if the level is a bit low. We have really hard water too and have installed a RO in the basement, with piping to drinking water spigots to the kitchen, bathrooms and the coffee bar. So, I could not tell you how much water I actually use, as it is not from a bottle.

Bear in mind, though, that my water use includes a brief cleansing flush after each shot and a blind basket shot at the end. Also, we use about 35 g of water to steam the milk each morning. So, the bottom line is, yes I'm using more water through the machine than I would if I had bought the DB, but a foaming jug full each time we use the machine isn't a lot of water overall. If we were drinking more coffee each day, then that would add up; but since we make it with the RO we don't have to lug those big bottles from the store, so I don't really care.

Well, that's about all I have...not a definitive answer to your question, but perhaps my experience will give you some idea of the volume of water used in an HX.

Your flushing far more than 40ml (half of 2 average doubles). Assuming your machine is running the smallest of restrictions that anyone runs (.6mm), if you ran it for 25 seconds you'd be looking at 208ml of water. If your machine has a .8mm flow restrictor you'd be flushing 371ml of water in 25 seconds.

Hi,

I am an owner of a DB and I don't consider I am using less water than if I was using an HX machine. I don't execute cooling flushes, but I still preheat my cup with hot water, rinse my portafilter/basket/showerscreen and backflush after every session. So I calculate I only skip the flushes, and I don't think it is enough to say a DB is using less water than HX when used that way. Water usage can be calculated with your routine, and I consider I am using a lot of water for a DB. But that is my routine, so anybody else can use less water too.

If your water is hard, you must do something. Plumb-in, FloJet, bottled water or whatever, but if you don't, it is really hard on equipment and damages can be devastating and it will happen really fast. This is a ''hard'' reality for any machine, HX or DB. Maybe a kitchen/bar setup analysis should be executed before buying a machine: choose a machine that suits your routine and needs, and make yourself the pleasure to choose convenience and esthetics you like : you will be happy to own a machine you really like with a water setup that will make it last many years with a better taste. And then go through the assles of providing her quality water. I see many posts and pictures on the internet related to problems that occurs after using bad quality water/intense descaling process and let me tell you, you don't want to go though this with your 1 year old baby. I did it. You will have to go through the water treatment process if you expect to keep it clean and clear for some years.

Some people are using a softener cartridge + carbon filter. Some others add a magnesium input cartridge for taste. Some others completely R/O the water and then add minerals to it, while some people are mixing tap water with bottled water to the machine tank. It's really up to you, and like the machine, you should go with something that fits your environement while providing taste and quality water to protect your machine.

But choose the machine you really like: the water situation will be the same on both options. And I don't think an HX machine is using that much more water than DB: you will have to refill anyways...

Regarding water consumption, I do believe the HX under most conditions would use quite a bit more water. If not used for a bit, which is predominantly how coffee is consumed in my house, I would need to initiate the flushing every time, which from what I can see in videos and instructions, is about 8oz. Doing that 4-5/day and I can see changing the water daily very easily. I know you flush the DB too, but certainly not as much because you're just getting the brew group to temp instead of flushing out water from the HX, no? When I hear HX users flushing for 20-25 seconds, that seems like a lot to me.

Yeah, I've chosen the route of bottled distilled water precisely to make my machines last longer. I use it in everything, including my stove top kettle. Seeing NO residue after months of use is nice (imagine the difference where I CAN'T see). And from speaking with a local dealer, they tell me using distilled means less wear on the internals and less repair/service bills for him (good! lol). I currently use 100% distilled in my superauto, but I understand I would need to add 1 cup of tap every time I fill the reservoir on some espresso machines that need mineral content to determine water levels.

I guess that what you read and see about HX flush routines, is in most cases based on machines with an E61 group-head. The flush volume is known to drop progressively if you pull multiple shots with not too much time in between. What "not too much time" means, will vary from machine to machine.
A "Dragon" type of Heat exchanger espresso machine (see Dan Kehn's explanation Ideal brew temperature management by HX espresso machine type) may not feature this pattern of diminishing flush volume, but the flush volume on each shot is smaller to begin with, nowhere near the 8 oz you are referring to. With an intermittent usage pattern and the screen flush you do in between shots anyway, the difference with DB machines in terms of flush water volume may not be that significant.

Not all hx are created equal. Some, such as the Rocket require minimal flushing.

Water consumption with the Salvatore HX is greater than it is with my Silvia. The Salvatore is a dragon. With the HX I typically use about 45-50 oz. of water a day. The Silvia would be more like 25-30 Oz. The increased water consumption is due to the cooling flushes on the HX. Rinse/cleaning flushes are about the same between the two machines. We usually drink 3 espressos and two milk drinks a day.