Vibiemme double boiler or HX espresso machine? - Page 2

by **bubbaD** on Sat Oct 02, 2010 1:27 am

One of the big detractions in DB/PID machines IMHO, is that you must wait for some time after a change in temperature in order for the temperature to stabilize. With a HX, you can change on the fly especially using Eric's adapter.

by **cafeIKE** on Sat Oct 02, 2010 2:55 pm

But when you nail the temperature, it's always there.

Preference is somewhat dependent on usage.
If one consumes a quantity of the same coffee, then changes, a DB is ideal.
OTOH, if one changes coffee more often than their socks, an HX maybe preferred.

by HB on Sat Oct 02, 2010 4:12 pm

prof wrote:My only real hesitation about the HX machine is the length and hassle of the cooling flush, how much time it takes and how much water it uses...

The HX vs. double boiler debate comes up regularly. To save myself some typing, I'll lift my prior response from Upgrade or not to double boiler:

HB wrote:The HX versus double boiler debate comes up regularly; below is a sample of the more thorough discussions of the topic:

HX vs DB
HX vs double boiler in the real world
The Worst Thing about HX Machines/Heat Exchangers are evil
Why are HX espresso machines so popular?
Some thoughts on heat exchanger vs. double boiler espresso machines
For me, the ease with which an espresso machine automatically manages brew temperature isn't a key criteria. The stick shift versus automatic analogy applies, i.e., if I were searching for my ultimate driving experience, I would not limit myself to cars equipped with automatic transmission. However, if I were shopping for my wife, I would eliminate any without it.

If you're convinced that exact brew temperature control is key to exceptional espresso, don't get an HX espresso machine. I personally don't mind the extra steps / intuition they require because I like the flexibility of on-the-fly temperature adjustments and brew temperature profile manipulation (i.e., with practice, you can produce flat or "humped" profiles on demand with certain limits). If that isn't your thing, the simplicity of a dedicated brew boiler with PID control cannot be beat.

by **prof** on Sat Oct 02, 2010 5:41 pm

Thanks everyone, and Randy, for reporting back with these numbers. So doesn't 21 seconds and 6 ounces of water seem like a lot? To me it does, but then my only experience is with a Silvia.

Also, just out of curiosity, and again speaking as a Silvia owner, it seems odd to me that you stop the cooling flush at a higher temperature than where it was after almost two hours of idling. I suppose the temperature keeps dropping for a while after, and you pull your shot once it gets to where you want it to be?

Thanks again.

Randy G. wrote:I have never timed my flush, but even with the cooling flush and a cleaning flush and backflush after every morning session, I only fill the tank about (an estimated) once a week or so.

ADDENDUM: I got some numbers for you:

Boiler Pressure: element off at 1.025 - Needle jumps to 1.05 at that time.
Idle Time for this "test": 1 Hour 45 minutes from time on to data acquisition
(all temperatures taken from Eric's group thermometer)
Temperature at idle: 205.5 F
Begin flush: Temp peaks at 209.5 F
Stop Flush at: 206.5 F
Time for flush: 21 seconds
Volume of water flushed: 6 ounces.

Another consideration... You are already at the pointy end of the stick... think about plumbing in the machine's supply as well as the drain...

by **JohnB.** on Sat Oct 02, 2010 7:43 pm

bubbaD wrote:One of the big detractions in DB/PID machines IMHO, is that you must wait for some time after a change in temperature in order for the temperature to stabilize. With a HX, you can change on the fly especially using Eric's adapter.

Depends on the DB machine. With a saturated group a temp increase stabilizes pretty quickly but a temp drop will require a few minutes if you don't want to pull some long flushes. I can live with it.

by **gardoni** on Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:34 pm

Hi!

I recently upgraded from a Silvia to a VB DB Super HX machine, so I thought I'd put in my two cents. I obviously agree that waiting a couple of months would be the sensible course of action. Simply put, you'd have more options. However, I would like to say that my experience with this machine has been great so far. On the issue of cooling flushes I would recommend this article here:
http://www.home-barista.com/hx-love.html

I would also like to share the following information:

My recovery time after the cooling flush, which lasts about 10 seconds, is about 12 seconds. I'm still fine-tuning my technique, but I haven't been wasting a lot of water. So, definitely wait. But again, I am loving this machine.

I hope this was helpful.
Sincerely,
Jorge Gardoni

by **prof** on Sun Oct 03, 2010 4:46 pm

Thanks Jorge!

I think I'm pretty much just going to have to wait to see what the pricing looks like on the new DB machines, but I have to say everyone's comments about the HX version are very reassuring. I know the DB/HX debate on here is an old one, but when the price is so close for sister machines it makes the choice more complicated than usual. If the new DB price goes up significantly, that will decide the issue for me. At that point it'd undoubtedly be better to spend the extra money on a replacement for my Rocky and be happy with the HX Domobar, which I'm sure is a fantastic machine.

Anyway thanks again everyone.


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