Maybe he just is a versalab fan - although he doesn't have one in his profile.

More versalab love by eiron at this thread.

Versalab M3 grinder owners

Eiron wrote:I view Versalab the same way. Do you want the gentlest & most direct path from burr to basket? Then you'll have a lot more comfort with Versalab's design if you learn what it takes to get there, & understand why production vendors don't want to invest in the tooling to create it. The resultant M3 design is definitely not mainstream, but the advantages of dual burrsets & not cramming every grind thru a 1/2" hole is phenomenal in the flavors created in the cup. You won't get "a 5 year warranty," but they will personally support your grinder for as long as you own it!

It's kinda overkill for the home user (not that that means anything to folks here ), but here's a view of Versalab's optimum operating setup. When you combine the grinder, hoppers & press, you can see how they're really designing for the commercial environment. They even 'splain some of the M3's advantages on their In the Coffee Shop web page. Surprisingly, most cafe owners (that I've talked with) haven't thought about any of these things

Hey, Sweaner - how many coffee shops have you gone into and asked them if they are having problems with repetitive stress injuries?

My wife happens to work in the Health and Safety field; she has an MPH degree in the field. Repetitive stress injury is a real issue in the cafe industry.

Eiron wrote:I understand exactly what you're saying. But people want different things for different reasons. What may seem impractical to you or me, may seem like a necessity to someone else. (I choose to drive a base model car with a manual transmission because I enjoy interacting with all the mechanical bits. My wife absolutely refuses to drive anything other than a fully loaded car with an automatic transmission.)

I guess that's why there's so much equipment out there to choose between ....

Now I'm gonna put on my engineer hat and give you a reason for why I think what I think about the Versalab press.

First, in engineering there's a concept that you should try to keep everything as simple and efficient as possible, that way your product has a smaller chance of not breaking down, and it keeps the cost of it down. In layman terms this is known as KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid).

Now comparing the Macap and the Versalab.

The Macap is nothing more than a dynamometric tamper fitted to a standard mechanical press. This allows; a) completely repetitive tamping pressures b) a comfortable working position c) less strain on the operator due to the mechanical leverage of the press. It also has the added benefits of being completely self sufficient, doesn't need to be "installed", just slam it on the counter and off you go. It also only relies on 19-century mechanics and is therefore quite available to survive the apocalypse, as long as you clean it and maybe oil it a bit every other year. Now, if the tamper is well designed, you can probably adjust the pressure of the tamper as well, but that's marginally useful at best.

The Versalab on the other hand;
a) is an intricate mechanical device, therefore much harder to service and maintain and prone to more breakages (this isn't an opinion, it's an engineering fact) b) it needs an external energy source other than the barista, which means it wastes energy and therefore money c) the different energy sources available all have their different faults. Water needs quite the installation, and needs to be done properly to avoid leaks that can damage the surroundings. It's also quite wasteful both money- and environment-wise, since the water isn't used for anything than the mechanical energy in the water pressure, the rest goes straight into the drain. Shop air isn't available in any café, and the compressors are noisy and require a lot of energy. Bottled CO2 costs a fortune, and you shouldn't release it into an enclosed space any old way (ever heard of carbon dioxide poisoning?). If someone pointed out that fact to the authorities then they would probably shut down your shop just because of unsafe working conditions. d) it doesn't seem to have any safety shut-offs. What do you think happens to your hand if it gets stuck between a portafilter and a piston trying to pack the coffee at 30 pounds? Might not be life threatening, but it would still give some very nice crush injuries, and you would probably get your business license suspended for unsafe working conditions. e) is it certified in all the ways needed for food preparation equipment?

When you then factor in all this you see that they have overdone themselves by overengineering something that was a relatively simple problem to solve initially. When you then factor in the problems people have had with the M3 Grinder and the aftersales support on it, then you really have to think about how wise a choice it is to buy an even newer and untested product from them.

Still, I'm not saying Versalab is a bad company, I'm just saying that the press is unnecessary complicated for the task at hand, and that they could work a bit more on support and "polishing" of their products. They seem to have adopted a bit of "we-are-geniuses-and-the-world-doesn't-understand-that-so-they-can-all-just-bugger-off"-attitude.

That turned into a bit of a rant now didn't it, and I'm not even half way done...

chang00 wrote:My wife happens to work in the Health and Safety field; she has an MPh degree in the field. Repetitive stress injury is a real issue in the cafe industry.

I readily believe that.

Now, I would like to ask you - how many coffee shops have you or your wife gone into and asked them about repetitive stress injuries with their baristas?

Stuggi wrote:Now I'm gonna put on my engineer hat and give you a reason for why I think what I think about the Versalab press.

Ever used or seen one? The "engineering" description surely doesn't describe the unit sitting on my counter which has worked flawlessly since its (1 hour) installation over 3 years ago. I guess if you don't like it because it offends some engineering sensibility it is OK. Everyone has a right to their opinion. But in actual use it has been a nice addition, certainly not essential, but nice. For me, at least, that's enough.

No, I have not seen the unit, so I'm just going from what I've found on-line. Good if it works for you, then at least it does what it's supposed to do, but I still think it grossly over-engineered.

SwingT wrote:I readily believe that.

Now, I would like to ask you - how many coffee shops have you or your wife gone into and asked them about repetitive stress injuries with their baristas?

Neither my wife nor I have actually "asked" any coffee shops. The coffee shops obtain her consultation when they have repetitive motion injury cases. The consultation is on how to reduce injury, claims, and insurance premiums. Coffee shops will probably not volunteer injury information to a coffee customer.

This is an early writing on "espresso maker's wrist"; namely, de Quervain's tenosynovitis.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/pmc/arti...47/?page=1

And here is another, unrelated case on the "peril of espresso machine":

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/pmc/arti...62/?page=1

chang00 wrote:My wife happens to work in the Health and Safety field; she has an MPH degree in the field. Repetitive stress injury is a real issue in the cafe industry.

I don't doubt that, either. But it is a potential problem in countless numbers of "industries." Then again, not every barista has that problem; nor does every checker in a supermarket, nor everyone who uses a computer -- and yet some do. I don't think anyone here is denying that there is a real risk, but then again, not everyone suffers the problem . . .

Cheers,
Jason