Hi everyone,

Been doing some reading and research on this site for a while.

Currently have a Rancilio Silvia and a doserless Rocky. Had them for slightly over 8 years. Doing mainly double shots for latte, probably 1 double daily from Mondays to Saturdays and 8 doubles on Sundays. We may be able to drink more coffee if we can cut down the preparation time.

The coffee scene here in Singapore 8 years ago was dismal, mainly Starbxxks, Coffee Bxxn N Txx Leaf, Spixxlli. Artisanal coffee only appeared in the last 2.5 years. We've been happy with what we got from our machines because we managed to get better results from what the we were getting from the mainstream coffee outlets, using the same beans that these outlets use to produce their coffee.

However, since we started getting our coffee from artisanal coffee places, somehow, using the same coffee beans sold by these artisanal places, we were not able to reproduce the same quality (or at least 75% of it) at home. We're hoping with an upgrade, we don't have to go out to these places again (not that we don't enjoy the outings, but we rather enjoy our coffee at the comforts of our home).

Here are the machine choices available (from most expensive to least, and where possible, if I could get a machine/grinder package as they are sold by the same supplier, I've listed the grinder as well):

1. La Marzocco GS3
2. La Vibiemme Lollo with any Mazzer grinder or Anfim Caimano On Demand grinder;
3. Rocket R58 with Baratza Forte AP grinder (could change the grinder to a Mazzer Mini or other Baratzas);
4. Domobar Super DB with any Mazzer grinder or Anfim Caimano On Demand grinder
5. Bezzera BZ13 or BZ10 with a BB012 grinder;
6. Expobar Brewtus with Expobar 600 grinder;
7. Rancilio Epoca S (single group with tank).

Here are my main grouses for the Silvia:

1. Warm up time (needing to flush at least twice before brewing can start);
2. Can't steam milk and pull shots simultaneously;
3. Inconsistency in shots (could be user error, but let's assume it isn't);
4. Small water tank (small matter, can be overlooked. We need a tank, we can't pipe-in.).

And the main grouses for the Rocky are the usual not-fine-enough grind and clumping issues.

What we want to achieve:

1. Better espresso, better consistency, repeatable results once dialed in;
2. Cut down preparation time (from warm up, grinding, pulling shots to the final product), so any electronics (on demand dosing, dosing by weight, presets etc) would be good;
3. Not going to upgrade again ever (if I can help it);
4. Same footprint if possible, if not, I think the La Marzocco would be the largest of the lot in the list above? And I need to add a grinder as well - won't have space for a Robur, Super Jolly or a Kony unfortunately;
5. We only have 15A circuit, can't do 20A.

In terms of budget, if I absolutely have to, I'll raise the funds for the La Marzocco and a Baratza Forte AP, but if I could get the same coffee consistency with a Epoca and a Baratza Forte AP, why not? 1 La Marzorcco = 3.5 Epocas = 2.5 Bezzera BZ13 = 2.25 Rocket R58 in terms of price here.

Where available on the internet, I've read the individual threads on each machine, but I can't seem to get a feel if I need to compare the machines against each other. Not all the machines are available for demo here.

My initial thought was to get the Epoca - it is a brand I am familiar with, it is a commercial machine, parts are easy to find on the internet, but I am not sure about shot consistency. My other inclination is to go for the Bezzera with a Baratza or the Rocket with a Baratza - these are reputable prosumer machines within my budget, but I am not sure how they would compare with the Epoca.

The other route I could go is to upgrade the grinder first, and see if it would make a difference to the final product, but it may not achieve objectives 1 and 2.

If any of you have had the chance to compare at least 2 of the above machine or grinder combination, I would like to hear your views. If you have some other suggestions/brands, please share as well. Some of the other brands may not available here (e.g. Duetto 3, Compak, Macap, Izzo, Mahlkoenig) and I can't buy from the usual WLL or CC as the voltage is different.

I am by no means an expert, also using a Silvia and never anything else for espresso,
so have no input to give on your choice of machines. They are all probably fine machines.

But from my own little experience and also from reading a lot on these forums I think the single best advice I can give is to not skimp on the grinder. I think any of the many experienced people on these forums will tell you the same.

echo wrote: In terms of budget, if I absolutely have to, I'll raise the funds for the La Marzocco and a Baratza Forte AP, but if I could get the same coffee consistency with a Epoca and a Baratza Forte AP, why not? 1 La Marzorcco = 3.5 Epocas = 2.5 Bezzera BZ13 = 2.25 Rocket R58 in terms of price here.

That Marzocco you list is a 7000 USD machine, and the Forte grinder is around 900 USD. If I had that kind of money to use for upgrading my equipment I would be looking at grinders from 2000 USD and up, like a K10, Robur or something like that.

Or if you don't mind hand-cranking you could get a hg-one for under 1000 USD or a pharos for under 300 USD.
(Never used a pharos but can highly recommend the hg-one).

I also recommend reading this post:
It's the Grinder, Stupid

Edit: Just to be sure there is no misunderstanding, I'm not inclining that you're stupid, that is the headline of the post

And I'm not saying the Forte is a bad grinder. I'm sure it is a very good one, but more of an 'all-purpose' grinder. I recently went from a very similar one with the same burrs (Baratza Vario with 54mm ceramic) to a hg-one with bigger conical burrs, and the improvement was not only noticeable, it was a little revelation for me actually. So I advice to go for bigger burrs and/or spend more on a grinder.

How about an Ek43? it seems to have gotten a lot of people excited for use for espresso even though designed as a brew grinder.
So what's the current 'no-holds-barred' espresso grinder?

Welcome to H-B!

echo wrote:We only have 15A circuit, can't do 20A.

I think that Singapore is a 220V outlet country.

You have your details lined up quite well in that post. Should get some good responses.

What other grinders are available in your area or from your sources? Remember the first rule of good espresso is: Grinder, grinder, grinder.
To get the best out of your espresso beans they have to be ripped apart by a grinder, and the better grinders seem to open up flavors that lower end grinders just can't find.

I see you can't have a large grinder. Can you list the limitations? Is it counter space footprint or is the issue cabinetry over the counter?

I am also not an expert on any of the machines mentioned accept the Silvia. I agree with Redman. If you have the coin for a GS3 I'd look more at spending more of your money on the grinder. From past research any espresso machine on your list will give you what your looking for. The only grinder recommendation I can offer is go commercial and go stepless. Originally my Macap MX was stepped and did produce good espresso but once I converted it to stepless the difference in the cup was huge. An added bonus with a larger commercial grinder is speed. The MX (64 mm burrs) can spit out enough grounds for a double in about 5 seconds.

My pick.. If it helps at all..

Rocket R58 combined with a Macap M7D.

RM/Dano/Burner,

Thanks for your replies.

Yes, our outlets are 220V to 240V, but the domestic circuit breaker trips for anything exceed 15A, so commercial machines that require a 20A circuit would not work.

I have limited space. The counter on which the Silvia and Rocky sit measures 24" (H) x 43" (W) x 25" (D) or 60cm x 109 cm x 63cm for those that prefer metric. There are cabinets above the counter. And there are other appliances on the counter as well. The Silvia and Rocky occupy slightly over half of the available width. The Mahlkonig EK43 would be too tall.

The brands that I had listed in my post have local dealers here, hence it is likely that they will have both the espresso machines and grinders (domestic and commercial), although they may not have the full range. Since my post, I've managed to locate the local dealers for La Cimbali, Gaggia, Mahlkonig, Elektra, Santos, Synesso, Nuova Simonelli and Speedster. The Nuova Simonelli dealer carries the Macap M5D grinder, in addition to the Nuova Simonelli grinders. The M5D would barely fit, would be a bit tricky to place beans into the hopper though. The M7D would be too tall, unless I could switch for a smaller/shorter hopper. I also need to check if the dealer can bring in the M7D.

I have considered hand grinders and read about the HG One and the Pharos, but have not given much thought to them as I was under the impression that they could increase preparation time? I don't think my wife would want to hand grind her coffee, so that's another reason for KIVing hand grinders.

Thanks again for your views, and keep them coming.

echo wrote:RM/Dano/Burner,Yes, our outlets are 220V to 240V, but the domestic circuit breaker trips for anything exceed 15A, so commercial machines that require a 20A circuit would not work.

There aren't many single group commercial machines you couldn't run on a 240v/15A breaker so I don't see that as a limiting factor. The Speedster draws about 13.5A max & I've run mine on a 15A breaker for over 4 years with no issues. Will the machine & grinder be on the same circuit?

JohnB,

Yes, they would be on the same circuit. I don't have a habit of leaving my machines on 24/7 though.

That really wouldn't matter. What would have to be considered is that the grinder is going to be used when the machine is up & running. You'd want to look at the combined amperage draw of both machines. No way to plug the grinder into a different circuit?

JohnB,

Probably not, but I'll have to check as there's another outlet on an adjacent counter for another group of appliances, but won't make sense ergonomically to place the grinder there.

I don't think you can get smaller hoppers that would fit on an M7D or at least that I know of. The M5D compared to the M7D on the Macap site says it only grinds a second slower. Even still 7 seconds to grind a double is pretty fast. You could always single dose but if you want speed overall the filled hopper helps. Also the M5 has only a 250w motor where as the M7 is 800w. Maybe the M5 is the better bet for you.