Upgrade from Lelit PL41... need help choosing

Recommendations for buyers and upgraders from the site's members.
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Arnauld
Posts: 16
Joined: 9 years ago

#1: Post by Arnauld »

Hi everybody,

I read a lot of threads and reviews on HB but I still can't choose between the many existing espresso machines.

I already have a Lelit PL41 plus T (the pidded version) and a Mazzer Mini grinder. The Lelit is very good at making italian style espressi. With dark roast beans, it produces some wonderful ristretti, full of crema. I can obtain the very same flavours I taste when I travel in Italy (Roma, Napoli, Venezia).

However, with more "modern" light/medium roasts, the espressi are disappointing. Of course, I don't use the same technique with light roast : I replace the stock basket with a VST, I dose more (up to 19g), I increase the temperature and I use a bigger brew ratio to obtain a regular double espresso and to extract the "sweet" flavors of the beans. The result ? I get some very well balanced espresso, not sour, not bitter, a decent crema... but the flavors, the aroma, are always "muted" !

I can perceive that lack of flavors because I often buy my beans in some coffee shops where they have some Rocket R58 or LM. For example, last week, I bought some medium roasted Ethiopan Anfiloo beans. In the coffee shop, with the R58, the fragrancy of the espresso was full of floral aromas. The flavours were complex, with some subtle notes of red fruits and white chocolate. It was gorgeous ! At home, 2 hours after, I made an espresso and the result was not on par at all with that ! The shot with the Lelit had a nice crema, was well balanced with a slight floral acidity, but the lack of aroma, the lack of complexity was very disappointing. The floral aroma was only a mild evocation, the red fruit flavor had disappeared, and the white chocolate notes were very faded.

I could buy an R58, but it's a bit expensive for me. I was looking for a cheaper alternative, but I do not know if I can obtain the same quality in the cup. Here is my (not so) short list :
- cellini v3
- strega
- mcal
- la spaziale mini vivaldi
- bezzera unica
- ecm classika pid
- NS musica
(...)

Last thing : I mainly drink some straight shots but in the morning, I like to drink a cappuccino.

Some help ?
Best regards,

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trombahonker
Posts: 28
Joined: 8 years ago

#2: Post by trombahonker »

If you live in the USA, I would strongly recommend you consider purchasing a Quickmill from Chris' Coffee (chriscoffee.com). If you do some searching on this forum you will see that they have the very best reviews regarding customer service, and the machines are fabulous. Great prices, excellent tech-support, great warranties. Sounds like you are considering exchangers mostly, so you could very happily consider the Quickmill Anita Evo or Andreja Premium. Or go with a dual boiler Vetrano 2b (I LOVE mine!) I also have a ten-year-old Anita at my work apartment that works and looks as good as new...

Rockets are fine, people like them, but I think you get a better bang for your buck with Quickmill. Machines Chris coffee has worked with them to design just have subtle improvements over the Rockets. The only exception I would say is the Rocket Evoluzione 2, an HX with a rotary pump for around $1700.

Best,
Aaron

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Nick Name
Posts: 680
Joined: 9 years ago

#3: Post by Nick Name »

As a happy owner of a Rocket Evo, I can recommend it to anyone. But I think after you move beyond a certain point all these prosumer machines are capable of producing excellent coffee. I think you probably could safely pick any one from your shortlist - which ever suits best your wallet - and which one's appearance you fancy most.

But for getting better espresso you will need to upgrade your grinder. Mazzer Mini is a decent espresso grinder, but upgrading to a titan class grinder will help you a lot. If you want to save a little money, you could start with a Pharos and then maybe later get an electric grinder of the same in-the-cup level (which will cost a lot more than a Pharos).

Nick Name
Posts: 680
Joined: 9 years ago

#4: Post by Nick Name »

BTW, did you know that there is a new version of NS Oscar coming out? It is very decently priced at: http://www.elektros.it/it/en/coffee_mac ... Simonelli/
It is pretty close to the Musica, but the price (645€ at the moment, but it keeps changing) is a lot closer to the old Oscar. Might be quite a bang for the buck?
http://issuu.com/nuovasimonelli/docs/os ... 1/30670488

Nick Name
Posts: 680
Joined: 9 years ago

#5: Post by Nick Name »

trombahonker wrote:If you live in the USA
I believe that France is in Europe. :D

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baldheadracing
Team HB
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#6: Post by baldheadracing »

Um, somehow I suspect that the shop that you go to isn't using a Mazzer Mini.
-"Good quality brings happiness as you use it" - Nobuho Miya, Kamasada

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Arnauld (original poster)
Posts: 16
Joined: 9 years ago

#7: Post by Arnauld (original poster) »

That coffee shop has a Fiorenzato F64. Maybe I should upgrade the grinder first, but it's a bit surprising as the Mazzer Mini costs already about twice the price of the Lelit. I don't think that the Mazzer is the weakest link here.

I don't think that an Oscar (I or II), even with the best grinder has enough thermal stability to produce a shot on par with a La Marzocco or a R58 (but maybe I'm wrong). In a french forum, I just read someone compared the NS Musica and the R58 (he had the NS Musica and a friend of him had the R58). He said that R58 straight espressi are the better that NS Musica one, with more flavors. That's why I put off NS Musica from my short list.

I'm not focus on HX. I also consider Bezzera Unica or the QM67.

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vilseiprairien
Posts: 75
Joined: 9 years ago

#8: Post by vilseiprairien »

I see you have Microcasa a Leva on your list. Have you read about the Ponte Vecchio machines (Lusso, Export)? These are of a similar design, but are less expensive, and said to have better thermal stability. There is a detailed review of the Lusso in the "Reviews" section of this site.

Nick Name
Posts: 680
Joined: 9 years ago

#9: Post by Nick Name »

Arnauld wrote:That coffee shop has a Fiorenzato F64. Maybe I should upgrade the grinder first, but it's a bit surprising as the Mazzer Mini costs already about twice the price of the Lelit. I don't think that the Mazzer is the weakest link here.

I don't think that an Oscar (I or II), even with the best grinder has enough thermal stability to produce a shot on par with a La Marzocco or a R58 (but maybe I'm wrong). In a french forum, I just read someone compared the NS Musica and the R58 (he had the NS Musica and a friend of him had the R58). He said that R58 straight espressi are the better that NS Musica one, with more flavors. That's why I put off NS Musica from my short list.

I'm not focus on HX. I also consider Bezzera Unica or the QM67.
From the Espresso Guide from the resources pages of HB:
"There is only one thing every espresso expert agrees on: The grinder is the single most important piece of coffee equipment you'll buy, and the last place you'd want to skimp. This has a simple reason-the coffee grind is both the most critical and the weakest link in espresso making."

A larger machine will make it easier to pull a good espresso. But if you only make one or two coffees in a row, the thermal stability of a machine like an Oscar (with mods) or an Oscar II should not be an issue. With any machine you'll have to learn to use it. With cheaper and smaller machines there are more quirks to get around with. But it doesn't necessarily mean that you can't make good coffee with them.

I used to own a Mazzer Mini. While it was a decent grinder, it is lightyears away from the Pharos as far as it comes to the cup. Mazzers have a reputation of being overpriced. I'm sorry to tell that to you, but that's how it is.

No matter what machine you'll end up using, you will have to upgrade your grinder if you want great results. Sorry.

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baldheadracing
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#10: Post by baldheadracing »

Arnauld wrote:That coffee shop has a Fiorenzato F64. Maybe I should upgrade the grinder first, but it's a bit surprising as the Mazzer Mini costs already about twice the price of the Lelit. I don't think that the Mazzer is the weakest link here...
It might depend on which version of the Mini that you have as some models come with bigger burrs that are comparable in size to the F64. Others do not.

I am not familiar with your PL41PlusT as the version sold in Canada is different, but it looks like the single boiler version of the PL60PlusT (Diana). As such, it looks to have a decent group with components similar to the Quickmill Silvano, Profitec Pro 300, and Ascaso Uno Pro.

I'd say to try adjusting your over-pressure valve first. Sometimes the OPV is set for pods (11-12 bar), which can make it difficult to extract lighter roasts.
-"Good quality brings happiness as you use it" - Nobuho Miya, Kamasada

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