Hi, I have a 2001 ECM Giotto. I mention the date as I have been told that the quality of build suffered in later years after the sale of ECM. Lately, I have been pondering an upgrade to a La Marzocco GS/3.

Realistically, I have never had coffee as good as I make for myself at home (there is that one place in San Francisco, but that is not a viable commute). Half of me feels that the expense and hassle, not to mention the the WAF (wife-assault-factor in this case) would not be worth it.

Any thoughts from owners of these machines or the community in general?

I think the answer to your question would depend on what you want out of your espresso machine. What problems or deficiencies are you having with your current machine that you think a GS/3 would fix?

As far as I know, the Giotto is a perfectly good e-61 HX machine, and should be capable of making excellent espresso and milk drinks. Unless you drink mostly straight shots and have a very refined palate or like to drink finicky coffees that require very precise temperature control, I doubt you'd get much benefit from the increased brew temperature control of the GS/3.

On the other hand, the GS/3 does have some advantages in terms of convenience from a user perspective, such as not having to do a cooling flush and being able to use the automatic dosing feature, as well as being able to plumb in or run it off a tank. Those are definitely nice features to have, but you can get most of them in machines costing far less than the GS/3, for example the La Spaziale Vivaldi II or the Izzo Alex Duetto.

Personally, I don't think that the advantages of the GS/3 are so great that it's worth the extra money over other prosumer machines, but there are certainly many people who feel differently. Ultimately, it's your money, so you need to decide based on your own personal preferences and priorities.

The goal would be to get better coffee, ideally, and probably better steaming capacity, which is the place I find the ECM appears to pale compared to the GS3. Otherwise, I could not point to any significant issues with the ECM, which in itself should be a point in its favour.

I don't have complaints about the coffee from the ECM at present, other possibly that variability from day-to-day based on HX traits (or my lack of addressing these). I also have a basic (non-HX) Vibiemme from 1999 and the difference in quality is tremendous (in favour of the ECM). Part of me wonders if I would get the same differential going to the GS3; part of me expects that there will be some improvement but likely not worth the hassle.

A part of the logic is that the ECM has paid for itself so many times over if you consider the cost of even a mediocre coffee around town. I know the GS3 would do the same.

I've never had the privilege of using a GS/3, but my understanding is that, while it may offer some improvement in the cup with certain types of coffee compared to an e-61 HX like the Giotto, it's not a tremendous "night and day" kind of difference. The difference is more of a subtle improvement, like the ability to taste some of the subtle fruit or berry flavors in a particular coffee.

In general, I believe that the law of diminishing returns applies to espresso equipment, just as it does in other types of gear. You may get a very large and noticeable improvement moving from a basic single boiler machine to a prosumer HX, but a much smaller and more subtle improvement when going from a prosumer HX to a high end double boiler like the GS/3. Is the improvement worth spending thousands more for the new machine? Maybe, but that really depends on whether you favor certain finicky coffees, drink mostly straight shots, and/or have a very discerning and demanding taste in coffee. I suspect many people would barely notice the improvement, while a select few might find it to be significant enough to warrant the price.

If you're mostly looking to improve the steaming performance of your machine, there are cheaper alternatives. For example, the Vivaldi II is known to be a very powerful steamer, and it's less than half the price of the GS/3.

Also, if you're looking to improve your coffee, it's often more cost effective and rewarding to upgrade your grinder before looking for a new machine, especially since your current machine is already very good. What kind of grinder do you have? Have you ever changed the burrs? Sometimes even a new set of burrs can make a big difference in the flavor of the resulting shots.

Not to sound overly obvious but if your steam power is lacking you could always just turn up the pstat.

Seeing that you are using a pasquini moka, I would second the advice to invest your money in a grinder upgrade. The Giotto is likely to have more potential than the average home barista can tap with his/her skills. I doubt thousands of dollars more is going to get you that much greater espresso. It's always tempting to want to upgrade because it's new and looks cool, but I would definitely go for a grinder and keep honing your skills further to get your best out of the machine.

Beezer wrote:You may get a very large and noticeable improvement moving from a basic single boiler machine to a prosumer HX, but a much smaller and more subtle improvement when going from a prosumer HX to a high end double boiler like the GS/3.

That was essentially my conclusion from One week with the La Marzocco GS3:

HB wrote:I'm surprised how little that I was surprised; if anything, I'm a little disappointed. Although the machine met all the performance claims I've read, the same feeling one experiences after having seen a critically acclaimed film befell me, the feeling that anything less than absolutely mindbogglingly fantastic misses the mark. Most assuredly I cast an eye about the kitchen and listened carefully. Never did I hear a chorus of angels heralding the birth of a new espresso from the GS3's grouphead, nor did I see a heavenly glow envelop the room. That's the risk of unnaturally heightened expectations -- specifically my expectation that the exceptional espresso "ceiling" would rise under the mystical powers of the GS3.

The GS/3 is an impressive package, but I would advise those with an E61 HX to temper their expectations because their most significant espresso machine upgrade is already behind them.

nixter wrote:Not to sound overly obvious but if your steam power is lacking you could always just turn up the pstat.

Would this not have some effect on the brew as well, though? To be honest, I have never gotten enough into the guts of the machine, and these days with an infant and a toddler, I can't foresee that happening.

jonny wrote:Seeing that you are using a pasquini moka, I would second the advice to invest your money in a grinder upgrade. The Giotto is likely to have more potential than the average home barista can tap with his/her skills. I doubt thousands of dollars more is going to get you that much greater espresso. It's always tempting to want to upgrade because it's new and looks cool, but I would definitely go for a grinder and keep honing your skills further to get your best out of the machine.

Interesting. I thought the Moka was a fairly good grinder. Will look at options here. Recommendations welcome.

Beezer wrote:In general, I believe that the law of diminishing returns applies to espresso equipment, just as it does in other types of gear.

After a night to sleep on it, this argument is starting to gain favour.

Beezer wrote:If you're mostly looking to improve the steaming performance of your machine, there are cheaper alternatives. For example, the Vivaldi II is known to be a very powerful steamer, and it's less than half the price of the GS/3.

I want to avoid a slight upgrade. I do not think I would do it for steam alone. In fact, the VBM is a monster steamer, but I find that it makes it difficult to use. Perhaps that whole machine is tweaked a little on the high side, which may explain its deficiency in brewing.

Beezer wrote:Also, if you're looking to improve your coffee, it's often more cost effective and rewarding to upgrade your grinder before looking for a new machine, especially since your current machine is already very good. What kind of grinder do you have? Have you ever changed the burrs? Sometimes even a new set of burrs can make a big difference in the flavor of the resulting shots.

I had done a test of the burrs about a year ago and they seemed fine. Another response here is suggesting a look at the grinder, which I will do.