Hello all and thank you for any advice you can share. I have had a well running Isomac relax machine that I bought from Chris' coffee service almost 7-8 years ago. I have managed to get some good espresso out of this machine during that period. I never quite achieved that God level shot as I was able to get close to when I had access to high-end semi auto equipment at a cafe but still while using the Relax I am able to coerce significantly better espresso on average then most coffee shops. Over these years I managed to know my machine very well and have been able learn intuitively what to do with regards to temp flushing and grind adjustment to get a fairly consistent decent quality drink. It just feels this is about the best I can do with this machine. My wife has never really developed a level of comfort close to what I have with the machine and therefore tends to avoid using it. In addition to regular maintenance I have had to perform some expected repairs during the life of the machine.

Given the fact that after many experiments with all manner of freshly roasted beans and techniques I do not think I can get anything better out of this machine and feel it may finally be time for an upgrade.

I have been a long time lurker here and an occasional contributor at cg forums and would greatly appreciate thoughts and advice on machine attributes that would be the best bang for the buck in terms of upgrade vs the current setup. For grinder I have a version 2 doserless Rocky that to is well maintained.

Some key attributes for the new machine:

Quality: reliability, serviceability, fit and finish, lifetime of machine under daily moderate usage
Convenience: Ease of use, good at steaming and for making great straight espresso (sometimes 3 milk drinks and another 2 doppios in a session) plumb and drainage option. I am not a huge fan of temp surfing and feel this is one of the key reasons my wife does not use our current machine.

Other thoughts: I like the idea of a no burn steam wand but this is not a deal breaker if not present. I also like the idea of boiler draining capability.

If anyone also has experience on usability details like placement of steam wand, hot water spigot and location relative to group head/lever that would also be helpful.

Some machines that seem to be possible options (of course I am open to others):

Vibiemme Double Domobar (new one)

Rocket Giotto Evo

Izzo Alex Duetto II (like the idea of PID but not thrilled about placement in relation to the boiler, also do not like the non curve water spout)

Finally the La Spaziale Vivaldi II (seems to be a decent machine but I am a little concerned about the automatic aspects- I understand these do not have to be used but feel they add cost complexity to the machine when not absolutely needed for my purposes)

Thanks for any thoughts/suggestions.

Updated with more details on the workflow aspect of making espresso.

Latest update: I will most likely get latest Baratza Vario as a replacement for the Rocky

John

I found that the best bang for my dollar was a grinder upgrade. When I went from the Rocky + Relax to the MXK + Relax, there was a noticeable improvement in the espresso. The Relax group is very temperature stable, with a good thermosyphon system. The MXK gave me much finder control over grind, but more importantly, rock-solid consistency, which I didn't ever experience in the Rocky. I pull very consistently great shots and when they're not great adjusting the dose up or down a half gram fixes it. Best $800 I ever spent for espresso (well after the $900 I spent for the Relax and Rocky when I got them new many moons ago).

Because we like to play the "what machine" game, if and when the Relax suffers a catastrophic failure, I'll be in the market for a new machine. If it were right now, the Vibemme machines would be my bet.

Dana

Thank you very much for the prompt reply. Oddly enough from a grind consistency perspective I have not had too many problems on that front with this Rocky. Still I have been reading up on the many grinder discussions and had assumed/planned a grinder update. Can you share your thoughts as to why the Vibiemme?

I would still appreciate any other thoughts on machine considerations from others as well assuming a better grinder was also part of the picture.

J

I recently went through much the same decision. I wanted to update my aging Livia 90 with the objective of more consistent results. After reading a lot of comments and reviews, my first reaction was that all of the machines in this class can offer great results!

But when it came to an order, I went with the LaSpaziale Vivaldi S1/V2. Just a few comments. These would also apply to others, of course:
1. I am surprised how much I like plumbed in. Well worth the hour or two it took me to do it.
2. Coming from my Livia I am amazed how fun it is to have a consistent temperature no matter how long I have had the unit on. While I know you can surf as needed, if you leave a Livia on for hours even the water tank gets very warm--I used to add cool water just to bring it back down. I also do not get the occasional sour shot from pulling a shot too soon either.
3. Being able to cut the steam boiler is really nice. I steam milk for my wife once in the AM, then it's espresso for the rest of the day.
4. The Vivaldi timer is expensive, but it is really integrated into the system. The buttons on the machine override the timer. I have it set to start every day at 6:00 to warm up before breakfast, and then shut off at 10:00 AM just in case I forget to shut it off myself. But typically after breakfast just push the off button.
5. Volumetric programming is not a big deal, but handy for flushing the warming the portafilter.
6. A 2 year warranty is not bad either.

PS: I also went with the Vario grinder.

Jonf, Thank you very much for your feedback. How are quality of the shots/drinks compared to your old machine? What was the biggest impact for you since the switch? thanks again

Hi John,

You can ask this question as many times as you like. You will have a more enjoyable espresso making experience with any of these machines, and you will get better steam; but your espresso will not change a great deal.

Get the Vario first for the better taste; then get the machine for the enjoyment and eye candy.

Jim,

Thanks for the feedback. I kind of figured as much. Sometimes we look for ways to help us justify a decision we already want to make . Unfortunately I do not have a dealer close to me and therefore have no way to get close to the new machines, so getting perspective on user experiences can give a sense of what they are like after some of the newness may have worn off.

Does anyone know of a dealer close to Richmond VA? I have been searching and can not find any. The closest I could find was several states away. Thanks

smite wrote:Jonf, Thank you very much for your feedback. How are quality of the shots/drinks compared to your old machine? What was the biggest impact for you since the switch? thanks again

Hi again!
In reply, I was going to say much the same as Jim, who hit the nail on the head.

My Livia was capable of some great shots, but I will say that the quality is MUCH more consistent now. I had my Livia for 15 years, so became quite adept with it, but still I knew if it was on too long I had to take measures like adding cool water to the tank to bring the temp down. Another factor was that, being a HX, if my shots ran too long(time) the temp would get too hot. With my DB, I found that long timed shots have a very nice flavor, and actually prefer them. You also get spoiled not having the machine shut off because you forgot to fill the tank . . .

If you do change, don't expect magic right away. It takes a while to dial in a new machine. I had thought this would be faster.

Jon, Thank you for the follow up response.