Dear American Friends,
I am writing to you from the other side of the great pond, from the land of the Frenchmen. Myself I am a descendent of the Romans, born and brought up in Italy...

Ok this was supposed to be kinda funny but went nowhere...

So here I am, an Italian stuck in France, a country that displays a strange mix of high coffee consumption and almost complete lack of coffee culture! So I had to become a HB!

Long story short I decided (or rather my current financial situation decided for me) to begin with the cheapest combination I could still call a HB set-up and see where I would get from there.
Thanks to eBay I got a brand new Saeco Nina from Germany for 50€ and a vintage Gaggia MDF for around 80€, to which I added new burrs. Tamper and bottomless PF followed swiftly.

My feeling is that I got what I could out of these machines and need to move on (a 2nd hand Mazzer SJ [100€] is about to arrive to my home soon), yet my finances are still limited so I cannot go crazy, or maybe I did already...

I have my eyes on the following 2nd hand machines (all around 450€):
-Silvia+PID, because I like to play around with different types of coffees temperature control is helpful
-NS Oscar, because it is an overall good machine and I would not mind not having to wait too long for Macchiati and Cappuccini
-Grimac Mia or other entry level E61 because it looks really cool (doesn't it?) but most important I have the feeling that its temperature profile would fit my taste...

And here comes my theory.
First of all, I like my coffee not too sour but I do appreciate some flowery or berry tones. I guess what I am trying to say is that I am not restricted to your typical Italian espresso taste profile yet I find some of the North American roasts and brew, too bright (how do I know? in my last trip to NYC I bought and tasted several of the most celebrated espresso blends from the east coast).

Having read a bit about the e61 group-head and having experimented with tasting the first, middle and last third of my shots separately, I came up with this theory:
I noticed that the first third of my shots is much more sour (but also aromatic) than the middle and final one.
If I understood right the e61 have a 'bump' at the offset of the shot, i.e. the water hits the puck at a temperature slightly higher than the subsequent part of the shot.
This should have the effect of making the first third of the shot less sour (higher temp=less sour no?).

Anyhow my theory is most probably completely incorrect but I thought to throw it out there...
Ciao Ciao

Caffelatte wrote:I noticed that the first third of my shots is much more sour (but also aromatic) than the middle and final one. If I understood right the e61 have a 'bump' at the offset of the shot, i.e. the water hits the puck at a temperature slightly higher than the subsequent part of the shot. This should have the effect of making the first third of the shot less sour (higher temp=less sour no?).

I'm reminded of one of my entries from the site's Quotable Quotes: "As I've now learned several times during equipment evaluations, attempts to foretell results based on specifications or preconceived notions of design advantage is a fool's errand."

While it's possible your taste of thirds for your current espresso machine correctly indicates an initially too low brew temperature (a common problem with entry-level single-boiler espresso machines), I would not interpolate this observation to another espresso machine with little design similarity to your own. I've owned several E61 espresso machines and none of the "first thirds" were consistently sour; in fact, they're typically intensely concentrated, dark chocolates. Sourness is typical of the last third, not because of falling temperature, but because few available solutes means no sugars or flavors, leading to a dull, woody, sourish flavor.

Caffelatte wrote:Anyhow my theory is most probably completely incorrect but I thought to throw it out there.

Without the ability to consistently manipulate the brew temperature profile, we cannot validate your theory. My measurements of lots of E61 espresso machines both as heat exchangers and double boilers indicates they ramp up to brew temperature very quickly and remains reasonable stable until the end of the extraction.

What Dan said, plus...
I went from Silvia + Rocky
to
Silvia PID'd + Rocky
to
Vibiemme Domobar Super + Rocky
to
Vibiemme Domobar Super + Kony

So I can only comment on that part of your list which would compare a Silvia PID'd to an E-61 machine. Starting with, not all E-61 machines are equal. With that in mind...

(and again, I am only basing the following comments on my own experience): There is no comparison. The Vibiemme (E-61) paired with a quality grinder is, without question, far superior to the PID'd Silvia. From the very first extraction when it first arrived it pulled shot after shot, the worst of which was better than the average pull I got from Silvia. There are a lot of reasons for this- some explainable by me and some not. It could be that this equipment matches my home roast, style of process, palate, or other factors hard to quantify. But there is a lot more to espresso than just temperature control.

What you will get from an HX E-61 machine is consistency that is difficult to coax out of a Silvia or other SBDU machine. So better equipment gives greater consistency and that gives you to opportunity to hone your skills and once you can get consistent results, a small change is more easily noticed and more easily repeated.

Now, the question is, will better equipment create the tastes you are looking for? Only you will be able to answer that. What can be said is that better equipment the operates more consistently will make it a lot easier to change factors to find that taste on purpose and not on accident, and then duplicate it.

Thanks Dan and Randy,
this is very helpful for me!

Even though my theory cannot be applied in general, Dan seems to confirm that with a e61 HX I will get a higher temperature at the beginning of the shot compared to my current machine but not because of a particular bump in the e61 temp profile but just because my Nina is incapable of delivering a proper temperature at the beginning (the massive e61 probably shows its buffering qualities especially at the beginning of the shot?). I am therefore pretty confident that with a little bit of work, I would get better shots on a e61!
After some readings here in HB I begin to understand the difference between different e61 designs, the main difference seems to be around pre infusion (or lack thereof) and pressure profiles, yet the temperature stability and profile seems to be a common denominator (due to the mass of the GH and presence of a thermosyphon) of all of those, although SB, HX, and DB designs and their volume will probably be a factor there.

Any comment on the Oscar or the Mia?
and
What would be your preferred "entry level" E61?
This is real fun, ciao!

Hi Dan,
I found a very interesting thread http://groups.google.com/group/alt.coffee/browse_frm/thread/207c732e469f61aa/ where jim schulman mentions your opinion and I am comforted by the fact that, although I incorrectly attributed the hump as inherent to the E61 GH while it is indeed specific of some machines like la cimbali junior and depends on the flushing timing, I seem to have correctly predicted its effect on taste

... The Cimbali Junior always had 1C to 1.25C a temperature hump at the start of a shot, no matter what he did, then ended the shot dead straight ... Now here's the kicker. According to Dan, for most blends, the Cimbali produces distinctly better shots than the LM. Per Michaeal Teahan's advice on E61s and his own research, a slightly shorter flush or a 30 to 45 second pause between flush and the first shot of a series, also produces the hump on each shot of a series and the same improvement in taste.

Here is my question, does anyone know if the Oscar behaves in a similar way
I should be able to get one 2nd hand from ebay germany probably for less than 300USD which is about what I can afford right now...

Ciao

...at the moment I am leaning towards a second hand single boiler E61...
wish me luck, I hope to get one fairly cheap.
ciao