Hi everyone!

My name's Julian and I'm a coffeeholic! (just a quick, first-post intro!)

I've been spending some time reading the HB forums and on coffeesnobs here in oz, but there seem to be more lever-aficionado's here so I'm hoping you can help with some advice...

My current setup is an Ascaso Dream single boiler with an iberital challenge grinder. I tend to drink double-shot lattes and an occasional espresso. The espresso is only occasional because the shots are rarely inspiring enough to drink as an espresso, but generally they work ok as a strong latte.

My usage is fairly low - I don't have time in the morning to make a coffee at home so I use an aeropress and kyocera grinder at work to make short or long blacks. The dream and iberital are therefore used mostly on the weekends and mostly just for me. Occasionally when friends are over I'll need to make 4 - 6 milk-based drinks, but this doesn't happen too often.

I'm getting a bit frustrated with the current equipment as it is very inconsistent. It's difficult to dial-in for a new bean, which is probably common on other equipment too, but it is also inconsistent from shot to shot - the same bean, grind, dose and tamp may produce a decent result or something burnt and bitter.

I'm also hoping that an upgrade will improve the flavour as, from what I've read on the forums here, people upgrading to an e61 from a silvia or similar are getting much better flavoured result.

Initially I was thinking of upgrading the grinder first however I'm thinking that the machine is the weak link in the current setup and the grinder is doing a reasonable and consistent job. It will also be upgraded at some stage but I'm thinking that a super jolly would hindered by the ascaso dream, but a better machine with the iberital challenge would be a bigger improvement and I can go to a super jolly or similar as the next step.

So then in looking at new machines I've been reading a lot about the PV Lusso 2 group and it sounds like a great thing, but I'm a little concerned about it's ability to produce a good, strong latte compared to an e61 machine. I'm sure my usage will change over time and I will be drinking more espressos with a better machine, but I do like the flavour of a strong latte, it lasts a bit longer than a one-gulp espresso and when friends are over they all drink milk-based coffees.

In Australia, at a similar price point to the PV Lusso (around $AU1450), the choices are the high-end e61 single boilers like the Vibiemme Domobar Piccolo or Isomac Zaffiro, or an entry level HX machine like the Nuova Simonelli Oscar or Expobar Office Semi Auto. I've had a chat with a shop in Sydney that sells various machines (but not the Lusso) and they suggested the Vibiemme Piccolo which they would temperature calibrate with a Scace. They suggested that the low-end HX machines are not temperature stable and if my budget didn't stretch to a decent HX ($2500 plus) then I would get a better and more consistent result from the calibrated Piccolo.

This sounds like very reasonable advice, but the shop is not familiar with the PV Lusso so they can't make any comparisons.

I understand that the Piccolo won't steam and brew at the same time like the Lusso. I've also read that the Isomac Zaffiro takes over 3 mins to switch from brew to steam - does the Piccolo takes as long? I'm assuming that with similar boiler size and heating element that it would be a similar time. It's not that big a deal though as I'm used to this from the current setup.

The Lusso has an obvious advantage of brewing and steaming at the same time, but is it capable of producing shots strong and flavour-ful enough to work as a strong latte? I've seen a post about using two double-shots on the Lusso 2-group to make a single latte, which sounds like a reasonable workaround and I don't have a problem doing this, but is the flavour profile of the Lusso more suited to an espresso than a latte?

At my price point neither machine is a perfect fit so I guess I'm looking for the better compromise. I'm leaning a bit towards the Lusso as it is so different to most other machines and I'd really love the spring lever experience, and I think that it is likely to last me longer before upgraditis sets in. But I would hate to spend the money and find that the flavour result is not much of an improvement.

Ideally I would go and try both machines, however the Lusso distributor is in Melbourne (about 900k's away from Sydney) so not so easy to do.

I'm hoping then that you guys with more experience with either (or both) machines can help me out with some advice or suggestions?

thanks in advance!!

Julian

I'm not really familiar with any of those machines. However, I can tell you that the little Kyocera grinder should be able to turn out plenty good grind for any machine you use. Most likely the weak link is the machine.

If you want consistency and ease of operation, over having control of every single variable, you might look into something like the rocket or maybe the Izzo Alex II. Those are the two machines I was considering (both E61 group heads), before deciding to stay with the La Pavoni for a while longer.

You might also check into something like the Nespresso machines. They use little pods, but for the money, they don't do a half bad job.

For me, I like the La Pavoni setup, since I like having the ability to control the lever/extraction. With most machines, once you push the button, you are out of the loop.

Ray

Thanks Ray,

I'd looked into the la pavoni's initially and that search led me to the ponte vecchio. I was a bit concerned about the learning curve on the la pav and also the heat issues with multiple shots - neither of these appear to be a problem on the PV Lusso.

The la pavonis seem to have a very faithful following though!

I think that for the next step in my coffee appreciation journey I need a machine that is very consistent. I'd like to improve on my technique and make sure I've got the dosing, grinding and tamping mastered. If the machine keeps moving the goalposts it's a lot harder to distinguish the effects of different grind settings and tamp pressures. It's also very difficult to train the taste buds to appreciate the variations in different beans and different blends.

Unfortunately I can't justify the expense of a decent Rocket ($3k+) or the Alex at over $4k. I have a strong suspicion I will need to upgrade the grinder as well so I need to find the best compromise on machine and grinder without spending $5k on top-end gear.

Hello Julian,

I have a single-group Lusso and a La Pavoni, and the Lusso is far easier to work with, and produces consistently excellent shots. With the LP, it is very difficult to nail the correct temperature, and get consistent results.

My issue with the Lusso is the low-volume shots. This may not be a tremendous issue with lattes (I'm strictly an espresso, cappuccino and Americano drinker, so I'm no authority on big-milk drinks), but an E61 machine would be more suited to giving you a "traditional" 1.5 to 2-ounce shot. I've also had an E61 machine, but got rid of it due to its size, potential complexity of descaling and pump noise. A Lusso has no pump, is a snap to descale, and is a pleasure to use due to its silence. There certainly is a bit of a zen-like experience to using a hand-crank grinder and lever machine.

Now that being said, I do have to say that my go-to machine is an Olympia Caffarex (big brother to the Maximatic). Grinding, using my Vario, straight into a PF basket, tamping and pulling a shot is awfully convenient. Levers are nice, but there is a more of a ritual involved. If you're into processes, you may like that. If convenience, and being able to bang out shot after shot, is important to you, I'd steer you toward a machine with a pump (and a three-way solenoid valve).

Good luck!

Ciao Julian,

Your Iberital grinder is probably quite sufficient for the moment, so I'd agree on upgrading from the Ascaso. I tend to think the Piccolo is not that big a step up. I wouldn't trade my Lusso for it, though as others have stated, lever shots are smaller. It takes a while to master the second pull, but it's not brain surgery. These days, because I pack so much coffee into the basket, my first pull serves as much for pre-infusion as for actual output.

With the 2-group Lusso, one way to make a big-shot latte is to combine shots from both groups into one drink. I've done it, but usually I make 5 oz. cappas, which don't require that much espresso. The Lusso steams like a locomotive, thanks to the 3-liter boiler; the ability to pull shots and steam simultaneously is a huge improvement. To really take advantage of that ability requires a spring lever, as a manual lever requires both hands for the duration of the shot. The main advantage of a manual lever is the ability to exert more pressure on the pull. Buona Fortuna, whatever you choose.

Thanks for the feedback - much appreciated!

It's like a lot of things in life though - very hard to find the best fit! I could:

1. Buy a Lusso, but be prepared to grind, dose, tamp and pull 2 shots for each drink
2. Buy a VBM Piccolo, but be prepared to wait between brewing and steaming
3. Spend an extra $1k - $1.5k and get a decent HX machine, but $3k is a lot for a machine that only gets used a few times on the weekend.
4. New option - Buy a MyPressi Twist. From all reports it's capable of very high-quality shots, and I've still got the Ascaso to steam up milk as needed. I can take the Mypressi to work instead of the Aeropress, and the $1300 difference in price will buy a huge amount of CO2 bulbs.

I'm kinda leaning towards 2 or 4 as there are suppliers in Sydney that sell both so I can go and test them out, plus if anything goes wrong I don't need to worry about sending the machine back to the supplier in another state.

I don't mind the idea of the ritual of the lever machine, but I'm just wondering how long I'll enjoy the ritual of preparing (and cleaning up after) two double shots for each latte! The latte's aren't that big though, only 6 - 7 oz, so maybe one double would be enough, but unfortunately there aren't any demo machines convenient in order to try it out. I'd hate to spend the money and find out the result isn't quite right.

too much thinking.. need more coffee...

jools wrote:4. New option - Buy a MyPressi Twist. From all reports it's capable of very high-quality shots, and I've still got the Ascaso to steam up milk as needed. I can take the Mypressi to work instead of the Aeropress, and the $1300 difference in price will buy a huge amount of CO2 bulbs.

For an espresso-only machine I'd prefer a Caravel or Peppina since they pack their own heating elements and don't require mucking about with flushing.

FWIW, I just pulled a great-tasting 1.5 oz double on the PV with 2-3 pulls on the double basket. I do this regularly. For milk drinks its no problem pulling 2-oz shots.

With the blends I use 15g in the double basket is no problem. 15g is the normal dose for a double espresso.

sounds like I'm worrying about nothing then.. maybe the lusso is the way to go then, it certainly has a lot going for it and most of the comments I've seen from owners is that they would never get rid of it even with the problems they've had. I suspect that a VBM Piccolo would lead to upgraditis a lot sooner than the lusso!

Does the lusso need a particularly good grinder or is it more tolerant?

I wouldn't say nothing - a lot of people with naked PF claim there is evidence of channeling with multiple pulls. I don't have one, and don't particularly care how the pour looks, as long as it tastes ok. Shots that use 1-2 pulls taste different than do 3-4 pull shots. But its akin to stopping a pump machine at 1 vs 2 oz - those shots taste different also. I can get 1.5 oz with a very minimum of blonding, and if I want more one last pull will go close to the rim of a demitasse. When ground and pulled properly even these don't exhibit terrible blonding. This is as long as the shots I would pull on the few pump machines I've used.

It does take a little practice to dial in shots that can take 2-3 pulls, but I guess it is not difficult. I've always used exclusively hand grinders with my Export, and they perform well. I can't compare them with high-end electric grinders though, because I've never used one.

I don't know, I suppose each type of machine has its advantages. It would be good to try before you buy. I think the lever experience will be different than you are used to - if you feel very inclined that you might like it it might be worth a try. For me, as soon as I learned about lever machines I wanted one, and I've never looked back.

PC