I have a saeco sirena with a baratza virtuoso grinder. I have had the machine for about 6-8 months and considering moving on. I struggle to get consistent shots and have a sneaking suspension the pump is not at 100% but I am not sure. I have almost no control over temp other than the overrated "surfing" technique which is equivalent to the colonial point and fire battle tactic. I have not doubt if I was to use this machine for another year I could improve on it, but I have a chance to buy a used rancilio silvia with pid and the rocky doserless grinder for an asking price of $900. What do you guys think. Part of me thinks I should hold out and learn all I can from the sirena and then move on to a prosumer machine (whatever that means). Then another part thinks I should step up and sell my low end equipment. Im open to ideas and suggestions.

Ive also heard mixed reviews about the pid; some question its reliability whats your opinion?

Thanks

I don't know if I'm going to help or not. But I had a Starbucks Via Venezia and a Maestro Plus and when I was looking at upgrading, the Silvia was tops on my list, however I was going to go with the Vario. It was new and it was getting great reviews.

I ultimately got a used HX La Val Auto for about 900 and the Vario for 550 (after Tax) because, well the Silvia itself in Canada is about 800 nowadays and I was comparing the price I paid to it being new.

If you can skip up into the HX level of machines I think you'll be a lot happier than 'dealing' with another sbdu and I'd seriously consider this jump. However, if money is an issue and 900 is all you can afford, the Rocky and Silvia have been great starter kits for H-Bs and have lasted forever in some home setups. You'll be much happier with the Silvia than your current setup, but shot consistency and frustration continues, just the potential for great shots exist on the Silvia.

Seed Planted.....

I would consider the grinder upgrade now, maybe a Vario or used Super Jolly. Then save for an HX or DB later.

I must admit I find it surprising you suggest upgrading my grinder rather emphatically. I picked it up off craigslist, for $20 I might add, and sent it in for repairs to baratza. It came back a new machine; my naivety may be harboring against me but it seems to produce consistent grinds and will certainly grind fine enough. I suspect the performance disparity, when compared to the vario, is found more in customizability and not grind consistency. I generally grind my espresso at click 19.5/40. Any finer and it exhausts my three legged dog of an espresso machine. I know when baratza refurbishes its products it always "updates" any components that have been improved/redesigned since the grinder you own has been manufactured. Please let me know if I had too much espresso this morning and not thinking clearly.

In fact I was considering upgrading to a better machine and holding off on the grinder (and passing on the silvia). I like your idea Spitz and I feel even though the silvia is an upgrade I may be better off getting something that is less finicky and that I will be happier with long term. That brings on lot more questions about which machine I want and what price range, ect.

I was reading some post about machines and different options; I think Im more undecided and perplexed now then previously. Maybe you guys have some machine suggestions that I can look into; it seems some of these machines are so similar you really need first hand experience with them.

My habits: I generally only use my espresso machine in the mornings so I dont want to leave a machine running all day. I would say at least 90% of my drinks are strictly espresso with the occasional latte so I dont really need the ability to pull and steam at the same time. But, if the cost is not that much greater I would consider. I only make one or two drinks a day, in the morning, assuming I dont have to throw out sub-par shots. I would prefer a machine that didnt take 45min to an hour to warm up. I really like the idea behind the pid and would like to buy a machine that cuts down on so much of the guess work. Watching the behavior of purged water and timing when exactly to pull a shot I find slightly masochistic. Best not to encourage my ocd any more that necessary. An adjustable boiler temp would be great. I do not require a plump connection. I dont have a "price ceiling" but I know its a slippery slope between what I "need" and what would be really cool for those social gatherings, or as some say "holidays," every year when the in-laws barrage your place of sanctity demanding beverages from the mantle of Athena

I see little need to justify spending over $1500 on a machine as the Alexia with pdi is $1200 and of interest, but I am open to ideas/suggestions

I read the Quick Mill Alexia with pid review and found that tempting. The comment that bothered me the most was Dan's about a 15min time requirement to switch from steam back to espresso on the pid model. But I guess that is something that can be easily worked around

Also, Jeff made a comment on a different thread about the Pulser Expobar being a good selection for someone in a similar situation as myself.

Then there is the BZ02 and the BZ07 and the Rockets; the lines are blurring

I may have left this thread entirely too open ended but I would certainly appreciate any comments/suggestions/observations as short or long winded they may be. I would like to thank you for just reading this far.

You might ask yourself, "how many upgrade periods do I want to go through?" And, those suggesting you upgrade the grinder and then a much nobler machine are asking you to wait and skip some intermediary upgrades. Patience worked well for me while I scoured criagslist to upgrade from my Gaggia vibe pump. After a couple of months I picked up a commercial machine and grinder for cheap, and learned how to work on them in the process.

CHAD

Pass. $900 for Silvia and Rocky is not much of an upgrade from what you have now. Save for a real upgrade.

For years, SBDU users have made decent espresso by surfing. It comes down to routine. On the Solis SL-90, I'd draw water till the light changed, then wait X seconds after the light changed back and pull. X varies by taste.

Keep the PF in the group at all times. Let the machine warm for at least 15, preferably 30 minutes.

Use fresh coffee. Run a few grams of coffee through the grinder each morning to clear yesterdays detritus.
Start with consistent dose via a 0.1g scale. You probably want to single dose the Virtuoso if only make a shot or two per day. Use coffee that are easy to pull, like Caffe Fresco, Toscana, etc. Try using WDT to ensure even distribution. Adjust grind with a 15g dose for about 45ml in 30 sec.

c1raider wrote:I struggle to get consistent shots and have a sneaking suspension the pump is not at 100% but I am not sure.

Run the machine without PF into a beaker / measuring cup with no PF. If you get about 250ml / 1 cup in about 30 sec, the pump is probably OK. Inconsistency is probably on the handle end of the PF.

Another option is spring lever machine. I can recommend Ponte Vecchio Lusso which is really forgiving and has such wide sweet spot you could drive ten wheeler through it. It will give you very good results if you are not hang up on shot size. Read review on this site.

c1raider wrote:I have a saeco sirena with a baratza virtuoso grinder.

First of all, upgrade the grinder! It is barely adequate for espresso -- meaning it really isn't adequate at all.

c1raider wrote:I have had the machine for about 6-8 months and considering moving on.

I would.

c1raider wrote:I struggle to get consistent shots and have a sneaking suspension the pump is not at 100% but I am not sure. I have almost no control over temp other than the overrated "surfing" technique which is equivalent to the colonial point and fire battle tactic.

That just tells me you don't know how to "surf."

c1raider wrote:I have not doubt if I was to use this machine for another year I could improve on it . . .

Probably, but it would be rather frustrating, wouldn't it?

c1raider wrote: . . . but I have a chance to buy a used rancilio silvia with pid and the rocky doserless grinder for an asking price of $900. What do you guys think.

Uh. Hmmm. (More below.)

c1raider wrote:Part of me thinks I should hold out and learn all I can from the sirena and then move on to a prosumer machine (whatever that means). Then another part thinks I should step up and sell my low end equipment. Im open to ideas and suggestions.

Let's not -- for a moment -- divide the world between consumer, prosumer, and professional (commercial) machines. Let's instead divide the world of semi- and full-automatic machines by their boiler type: single boiler/dual use (SBDU), heat exchanger (HX) and double boiler (DB).

The problem that I have with the move to a Silvia & Rocky combination is that you will still have the same thing you have now: an SBDU machine, and an adequate (but by no means excellent) grinder. On their own, the Silvia and the Rocky are both well-established, solid pieces of equipment that have been around for a long period of time and should (given proper care) provide you with espresso drinks for a long time to come. On their own, they are however seriously over-priced. The advantage to having a PID is that you won't have to surf -- something that is infinitely more difficult to explain than it is to simply do.

I do not know your budget, other than surmising that $900 is within reach. I don't know the tpes of drinks you want to make -- but wait! there's more . . .

c1raider wrote:I must admit I find it surprising you suggest upgrading my grinder rather emphatically. I picked it up off craigslist, for $20 I might add, and sent it in for repairs to baratza. It came back a new machine . . .

So you got a great deal. No, seriously. You did! Congratulations. It's still barely adequate . . .

c1raider wrote:My habits: I generally only use my espresso machine in the mornings so I dont want to leave a machine running all day. I would say at least 90% of my drinks are strictly espresso with the occasional latte so I dont really need the ability to pull and steam at the same time . . .

Yeah. You don't think you do, but you do. Honest. Or rather, once you have a machine that lets you do both, you'll wonder how you ever lived without it.

c1raider wrote: . . . But, if the cost is not that much greater I would consider. I only make one or two drinks a day, in the morning, assuming I dont have to throw out sub-par shots. I would prefer a machine that didnt take 45min to an hour to warm up.

ANY decent machine takes t ime to warm up. Even that Saeco Sirenna! Just because the light goes out (or comes on, whichever it is), doesn't mean the machine is ready to use. Honest . . .

c1raider wrote:I really like the idea behind the pid and would like to buy a machine that cuts down on so much of the guess work. Watching the behavior of purged water and timing when exactly to pull a shot I find slightly masochistic.

And what makes you think you won't have to pay attention to timing, to the way the shot pours, to -- all those things?

c1raider wrote:An adjustable boiler temp would be great.

So you do want a PID?

c1raider wrote:I dont have a "price ceiling" but I know its a slippery slope between what I "need" and what would be really cool for those social gatherings . . .

So your partner doesn't drink coffee, and you have no friends or family that does? (My point is simply this: if all you ever want to make is straight shots of espresso for yourself, and for no one else, pick up a Caravel or La Peppina off eBay, and save yourself a bunch of money.)

c1raider wrote:I see little need to justify spending over $1500 on a machine as the Alexia with pdi is $1200 and of interest, but I am open to ideas/suggestions

FWIW, the Alexia w/PID or the Anita or ________ or __________ or -- they will ALL take 30-60 minutes to be ready to use.

c1raider wrote:Also, Jeff made a comment on a different thread about the Pulser Expobar being a good selection for someone in a similar situation as myself.

Based upon my personal experience, I am not a big Expobar fan -- especially anything "below" a Brewtus III. (Note: I haven't used a Brewtus, but there are enough people around who have, and who swear by them, so that I believe them to be solid, sound, and desirable macines. The lesser models, however -- well, like I said, I am not a fan.

c1raider wrote:Then there is the BZ02 and the BZ07 and the Rockets; the lines are blurring . . .

Personally, I'd take a strong look at the BZ07.

c1raider wrote:Ive also heard mixed reviews about the pid; some question its reliability whats your opinion?

IMHO, they can be helpful on an SBDU machine; they are a waste of money on an HX machine; and they can be helpful on a DB machine.

Just my 2¢ -- probably worth far less. Feel free to keep the change and remember, as always, YMMV.

Cheers,
Jason

wow great response; I will have more to say in the morning...after my 5 shots of espresso

Find someone that is nearby and willing to compare your grinder vs their grinder (you supply fresh beans) on their espresso machine. Perhaps they would be willing to see what they can get out of your machine with a different grinder and temperature surfing. With any luck, there will be a willing member nearby that can show you if there is (or is not) a reason for you to upgrade.

Mark