After 8 years with an unmodded Silvia/Rocky combination, I am on the upgrade path. I've recently purchased a Quamar M80e grinder and am now focusing on the machine. My initial plan was to save up for a BDB, and that is still a strong contender, but I'm also considering other options, such as an E61 HX machine, as well as thinking about whether it is worthwhile to add a PID to the Silvia while I'm saving up. My normal usage is 3 cappuccinos and perhaps one espresso in the morning. After doing a lot of reading, I'm starting to get confused about the supposed advantages (aside from the convenience and time advantage of being able to steam milk and pull shots simultaneously, which I think I understand) of an HX or DB over the PID Silvia at least for my volume of use. I'm hoping that someone will take the time to explain why I'm wrong about the following comparisons:

Silvia vs. HX

The descriptions of HX temperature control technique I've read here suggest a procedure that seems very close to the temperature surfing technique I use on the non-PID Silvia. To quote DK's "Managing HX Brew Temperature" article, "All you need to do is observe and listen carefully and you'll discover the technique is always the same-you've flushed enough water when it stops flash-boiling, plus a little more." That's pretty much what I do now--wait until the Silvia power switch light goes off and then flush the group until a couple of seconds after the flash boil ends. It seems like in both cases you are guessing a bit about temperature, and it's not clear to me why temperature control on the HX is better than surfing on the Silvia. On the other hand, I would think that adding a PID to the Silvia would give better control than the HX.

PID Silvia vs. DB

I'm not sure what the practical difference on the espresso side is between a Silvia with PID and a DB with PID. They both have a boiler with PID control that heats the group with some degree of temperature offset. I understand that some DBs, including the BDB, have additional bells and whistles such as a separately heated group head, but excluding those, why is a PID Silvia inferior for espresso temperature control to a DB?

I suspect that these questions have been addressed in some way or another previously, but my searching doesn't turn up very direct answers.

Thanks,

Chris

Couple of quick points. I don't have a Silvia, but from my understanding and based on my experience with other SBDU machines, here are the problems with them, even with a PID:

• Just because you PID (fancy thermostat if we're honest) the boiler, that doesn't guarantee grouphead water delivery to be perfect. Depending on machine design, this can require a tiny flush, or long flush with recovery, or some other equally complicated ritual, but overall is always better and more reliable than the same machine without a PID. If you're comparing to a prosumer DB or HX, it may be equally or more complex of a routine.
• Yes, you can't steam milk while pulling a shot with a SBDU machine. To be honest, even with a HX I rarely did this. However, I would steam immediately after pulling a shot. Depending on your machine and how long it takes to go from brew to steam, will depend on how big of a deal this is to you. Generally if you're making one drink, it's not a big deal. But if you have to make multiple, cooling down from steam back to PID stable temp may be more problems as well.

Generally, the more you spend, the easier time you'll have (with routine and temp management). But that's not always the case, and sometimes you can get a machine that's over-sized for your needs. If you're heating up a massive DB machine or multi-group commercial machine, just to pull a single shot regularly...you probably should look for something else IMO.

...which is why most of us don't need a huge commercial 2/3-group espresso machine for HOME use. Unless we WANT one...which is a reason hard to argue with. Same for people who want a huge commercial grinder also.

For me, however, a quite capable HOME use machine is just fine...as long as it CAN pull shots and steam at the same time for "party use" when several people are waiting for the barista to get the drinks out quickly.

I went HX for that...

*********************************************************
As for the OP's (Crispy) question about Silvia and a PID, I'd say it depends on how long he is going to use Silvia before getting a new machine. If a "good while" (to be defined by him) then adding a PID would be a good move, as it would pretty much "complete" Silvia -- can't do much more for her beyond that, being a SBDU machine.

If NOT keeping Silvia a "good while" then the person most to benefit from adding a PID to Silvia would be her next user/owner, who would be very grateful for that $$$ upgrade.

-- BR

Chris, this is my thought:

PID vs HX -- Many folks here made sure to point out to me that a temperature surf is not the same as a cooling flush. It might feel the same, as you're expending water to get to a desired temp. The difference is that it's more consistent with an HX, and is only needed if you take a long time between shots.

PID vs DB -- since the DB will have a PID to control the temperature in the brew (and probably steam) boiler, they are largely similar. You will still be flushing water before hand to warm up your cup and stabilize the group temperature some, but not as much as an HX.

The HX & DB of course will be able to steam immediately and even simultaneously, but the DB machines will have other things that Rancilio doesn't - an E61 group with a thermosyphon (less heat lost when brewing since the group is hot), and maybe a better build quality and components (I don't have a Rancilio so I dunno if I can say this with certainty). The DB might give you a plumb option, or no-burn steam arms. You also get a hot water tap and faster recovery between shots.

I went from a CC1 (which is a single boiler with a PID) to an HX machine. it is out for delivery but I didn't let the cooling flush bother me when making my decision.

I've had a PID'd Silvia, and HX (for a month, returned it) and currently have a DB (QM67). The PID on the Silvia helps a lot, but there are still some challenges. As noted, and I am sure you know, the single boiler heat up/cool down with milk drinks gets old fast.

But even if you mostly drink espresso, as I do, the Silvia with a PID still suffers from consistency issues, at least in my experience. While I could make some pretty good shots, things never were quite as easy nor consistent as they are with my current QM67.

HX's require a flush. This is far simpler than the temperature surfing of the Silvia. Usually you flush a few seconds (typically count a consistent number of seconds) and you are ready to pull your shot. See /hx-love.html for more info. That said, I don't like HX's. While the flush routine should be (is?) easy, I am obsessive enough to prefer the stability of a DB with a PID. When it comes to exploring different temperatures, I don't like the varying flush time ritual. But many others have no problem with it and even prefer it. This is really a personal preference.

I really like a DB with a PID. I hear good things about the Breville. I really like my QM67, though some heavier milk drinkers prefer more steaming power.

So, since you already have a Silvia, adding a PID is the low cost option. You still have to deal with the steaming/brewing tradeoff. A Breville DB or HX will cost similar; I think the difference will depend on your aesthetic tastes and preference for HX vs temperature controlled DB.

Other things being equal, a machine with the boiler closely coupled right to the group with have fewer sources/less temperature error than one with them separated (as in an E61 group). I don't know - I understand that the Silvia has an offset group, so somewhat in-between?

If you don't care about steaming, then a PID controlled "single boiler mounted to group" machine can provide temperature performance exceeding even very expensive "saturated group" machines.

Because of the age of the Silvia you will probably find more useful information searching for CC1 vs Db (or breville dual boiler perhaps)

From there you can also search comparisons of Silvia and the cc1 to start really tying it all together.

Beyond the obvious aforementioned elements you might also search:

Importance of preinfusion
Instrashot temperature stability

jonr wrote:Other things being equal, a machine with the boiler coupled right to the group with have fewer sources of temperature error than one with them separated (as in an E61 group).

As in one piece/welded like an old Bezzera? Not many if any machines in current production still have those. And the one piece groups aren't inherently stable. My two Livia 90s' groups were one-piece and those machines were dragons. I'm not sure when the last time someone came out with a direct connect design either. Not that I don't like the extremely stable direct connect group in my "agnostic" HX, La Cimbali M21 Casa.

Most, if not all, machines designed in the last couple of decades use independently heated, saturated or the thermo-siphonic E61 groups. If there are any modern (as opposed to legacy) direct-connects anymore, I don't know of them.

If you don't care about steaming, then a PID controlled "single boiler mounted to group" machine can provide temperature performance exceeding even very expensive "saturated group" machines.

Depends. Besides life is about more than temp stability. Most SBDUs are bottom of the line and have other issues as well.

csepulv wrote:HX's require a flush. This is far simpler than the temperature surfing of the Silvia. Usually you flush a few seconds (typically count a consistent number of seconds) and you are ready to pull your shot. See Managing the Brew Temperature of HX Espresso Machines for more info.

Let me jump on the "Temping an HX is nothing like temp surfing an SBDU" bandwagon, because it isn't.

If you're idea of temping a PID machine is setting the PID once and leaving it there as long as you own the machine without dialing in every different coffee... get a DB. If you understand enough about dialing in and care enough to do it every time you change beans, dialing in an HX and then temping it for successive shots is no more difficult than dialing in a DB. The processes become automatic once you've done them enough times.

Getting back to the bottom line, the BDB is about as user friendly and fully featured as a machine gets. If you can look past all the plastic it's such a no-brainer that you almost have to make a case against buying one.

GRINDER GRINDER GRINDER

Rich

Thanks for all the informative responses, which in part confirm and in part refine my thinking.

Getting back to the bottom line, the BDB is about as user friendly and fully featured as a machine gets. If you can look past all the plastic it's such a no-brainer that you almost have to make a case against buying one.

That is the sense I'm getting. But I'm a Shakespeare-level Italophile, and the style points of the E61 HX machines are alluring.

I have a feeling you missed the lever option? If you feel that way about the breville you might wet your pants when you experience a lever. (Or at least, as i did, end up with one very angry wife for a while) you would also need a pretty good spring lever to make it easy on the wife.

(Mostly joking but did want to make sure you were aware of the option. I am confident inwill be a lever man for life myself, just makes the whole process beautiful somehow.)