I've been searching high and low both here on HB and on google at large for a comprehensive guide to lever machines. I think I'm ready--and I have a second home to put one in-- a home that currently makes do with an SBDU.

From reading through various threads about levers, I've picked a few needles out of the various haystacks, but I want something a little more comprehensive in the way of a list of suitable candidates that are not rare oddities but easily available. Manual'ness does not bother me in the least. Like the HG One guys, I all but insist on manual transmissions in cars, for example.

So far the commonly available sub-$1000 machines I have found are:

La Pavoni:
pro: inexpensive and common
con: wonky backwards portafilter pitch
question: what's different about the Europiccola? It looks smaller. Any tradeoffs vs. the bigger ones?
question: are used ebay ones to be avoided? IOW are you asking for trouble with a used one?
steam power?

Elektra:
pro: don't know enough
con: don't know enough to even guess
question: more expensive than La Pavoni--what do you get for the extra kwan?
question: do they have the wonky reverse-pitch portafilter too?
steam power?

Cremina:
pro: seems like the gold standard in common levers
con: hard to find even used under $1000
con: out of production?
steam power?

I assume a PID to flatten boiler temps is useful--or is temp surfing a lever actually as easy as it is on an E61/HX? If it's that easy, I might not bother PID'ing. I'm handy with mechanical stuff and wiring (build my own race car motors).

I also assume that steaming requires the same "dance" as in SBDU machines? (something I am tolerant of, because I don't do much steaming anyway, but I like good results when I do.)

Are levers like pump machines in that the inexpensive ones, (like SBDU pumps), are just too hit-and-miss?

That is about all I know about levers in general, and the ones I mentioned in particular. I don't even know if this skeleton of understanding can stand on it's own, and it DEFINITELY needs to be fleshed out. A lot. Thanks.

-Peter

Hi Peter:

You might add to your list the Ponte Vecchio Export. The Europiccola is very similar to the Professional Pavoni except it has a smaller boiler. Steam power is strong on an Elektra MCAL or a pre-Millennium Pavoni with manual switches. If you've got the PSTAT properly set on the Millennium Pavoni steaming is slower but I find it quite adequate.* I've heard similar things about the Cremina.

I've been playing with the three levers you mentioned and have some links for you:

Another Lever Smackdown: Olympia Cremina, La Pavoni Europiccola, Elektra Microcasa a Leva

La Pavoni Millennium Owners, Are Temperature Problems Solved?

For La Pavoni, the pre-Millennium models are better built but controlling temperature is more challenging. This thread may interest you, because with good measurement you're way ahead:

Adding Thermometry to a La Pavoni Europiccola

You ask if it's risky to buy online or used. Well, yes and no, if you know how to check it out and if you aren't squeamish about rolling up your sleeves. Check for scale, leaks, worn lever pin holes, rust in the drip tray and under it, cosmetic issues.

My eBay Elektra Microcasa a Leva - Vintage MCAL Mods and Cleaning

Additional spring for Elektra Microcasa a Leva [VIDEO]

Added: If you're concerned about inexpensive levers being hit or miss (I think they're fine) and want something that steps up to another level, 1st-Line's selling the Bezzera Strega for $1699. Then you would have a temperature-stable commercial lever group and versatility that Jim Schulman really likes.

* Steaming improves with an acorn nut drilled with a single hole as a replacement tip.

I don't know if you need steaming, but La Peppina is easily available, as is the caravel on the italian ebay.

pcrussell50 wrote:...

Cremina
...
con: out of production?
steam power?
...

The Cremina is not out of production. New ones run $3850. http://www.orphanespresso.com/Olympia-E ... c_396.html

I have an '82 and there is more than sufficient steam power. I have to throttle it back.

Look at the PV Lusso also. I think they are under $1000. They are like a mini commerical lever machine in design, and make a great cuppa joe.

PC

Used, operational Creminas complete with accessories seem to be coming back down under 1K again.

Thanks, folks. More questions--

Seems like the Elektras cost a little more than the Pavonis: Why?
Better made? Better equipped? Snootier brand? All of the above?

Temp surfing the simple levers: Is it as easy as temp surfing an E61 HX?

PIDs: A PID can only help so much on a cheap SBDU how much help are they on inexpensive levers? Seems like since even the small levers have big boilers, basic decent thermometry might be just about as useful.

PSTATs: Do the models with a PSTAT do away with the steady hissing noise that the preM Europiccolas do? (Thinking wife-approved aesthetics here).

Physics: Been watching RayJohns YouTube videos of of an HB'ers preM
Pavoni showing ~235degF ish boiler temps at ~1bar--something that sounds about right given the pressure. But isn't that a little hot? Or does the temp drop to ~200degF'ish as it travels the brew path?

-Peter

pcrussell50 wrote:Seems like the Elektras cost a little more than the Pavonis: Why?
Better made? Better equipped? Snootier brand? All of the above?

Yes, yes, larger and more stable, snootier? Don't know. Much prettier.

pcrussell50 wrote:Temp surfing the simple levers: Is it as easy as temp surfing an E61 HX?

A bit different. Read the link I sent you about the lever smackdown where there's a whole write-up I did on toggling. There's also a complete write-up on another thread I gave you on the Millennium Pavoni. Read please. Don't just ask us.

pcrussell50 wrote:PSTATs: Do the models with a PSTAT do away with the steady hissing noise that the preM Europiccolas do? (Thinking wife-approved aesthetics here).

Yes.

pcrussell50 wrote:Physics: Been watching RayJohns YouTube videos of of an HB'ers preM
Pavoni showing ~235degF ish boiler temps at ~1bar--something that sounds about right given the pressure. But isn't that a little hot? Or does the temp drop to ~200degF'ish as it travels the brew path?

If you read Ray's posts you'll see that he sets the PID to get the right temperature at the group. The group is cooler of course than the boiler because of the heat sink effect.

drgary wrote: pcrussell50 wrote:Temp surfing the simple levers: Is it as easy as temp surfing an E61 HX?

A bit different. Read the link I sent you about the lever smackdown where there's a whole write-up I did on toggling. There's also a complete write-up on another thread I gave you on the Millennium Pavoni. Read please. Don't just ask us.

+1 - there are a ton of methods out there and significant differences between machines that have been discussed in those threads. Comparing to an HX E61 the huge differences are 1) there is no thermosyphon action to maintain the group temp, and 2) you can't do a simple cooling flush.

drgary wrote: pcrussell50 wrote:Physics: Been watching RayJohns YouTube videos of of an HB'ers preM
Pavoni showing ~235degF ish boiler temps at ~1bar--something that sounds about right given the pressure. But isn't that a little hot? Or does the temp drop to ~200degF'ish as it travels the brew path?


If you read Ray's posts you'll see that he sets the PID to get the right temperature at the group. The group is cooler of course than the boiler because of the heat sink effect.

It is a crude meet in the middle between too-hot boiler water and a cooler than 200F brass group. You can use a temp strip or thermometer on the group to help get the right group temp. You can raise it easily with lever half pumps, but cooling requires other tricks (again, see drgary's links.) If you have a pressure gauge you can watch it and use the power switch to moderate the boiler water temp.

Another worthwhile read is Tekomino's temperature studies of the Cremina. That will give you a much better sense of that machine. See:

Olympia Cremina Temperature Study, Part 1