I'm new to this forum and signed up as I'm really confused about my next purchase. Currently I have an Isomac Zaffiro which has been causing me constant steaming problems (great for shots). As I use the machine almost entirely for cappuccinos I've decided to upgrade to either one of the cheaper Double Boiler machines like the Expobar Brewtus III or a HX machine like the QUICKMILL ANDREJA PREMIUM. My budget won't stretch to anything beyond the price of these machines.

I have read the buyers guides but as my requirements are quite specific I need help!

OK, here's the dilemma. I do like the convenience of no flushing or surfing on the DB machines. My wife won't tolerate anything too technical either so we want a machine that simply makes a great coffee and steams milk really well. So, I hear you say, why not just go for the Brewtus? Well, many of the reviews I've read have said the steaming power of this machine isn't great and the last thing I want is to trade up to a machine that isn't much better than what I have! That said, we rarely need to steam more than 3 cups worth of milk. The HX machines sound much more powerful in this respect but the temp surfing and flushing sound like too much hassle for us.

We use our machine in the morning for 2 cups of cappuccino, then again in the afternoon for same and sometimes more at the weekend. We wouldn't have our machine on all day ever.

Have any of you Brewtus owners any encouraging news about its steaming capabilities? Any HX owners who use their machines as little as us any advice?

(I live in Dublin and would be getting a European voltage model)

Thanks very much

Adrian.

You'll definitely want to read this if you haven't found it already: http://www.home-barista.com/hx-love.html
It's a very thorough description of managing water temperature with an HX, with lots of advice.

Available steaming power has many factors. Initial steaming power is primarily a factor of the boiler size. The BIII has a boiler roughly twice the size of the Zaffiro hence would initially have roughly twice the initial steam available plus the steam on the BIII would be available while pulling the shot rather than switching from brew temp to steam temp on any single boiler dual use.

Prolonged steaming brings in boiler heater element. Here's the weakness of the US BIII, relatively low wattage heater to allow running on 120v 15A. In most home use situations I doubt it's much of a problem, but if attempting to do a bunch of back to back milk beverages steam pressure would not keep up. Which can be said of about MOST prosumer class machines to one degree or another whether HX or DB. That said a prosumer HX machine with the same size boiler as the BIII steam boiler would usually have better prolonged steaming capacity because of higher wattage heating element. My Bricoletta has a heating element twice the power of the BIII steam boiler and no way can the Bric' come even close to keeping up with a larger steam boiler machine.

The question comes down to usage style. IF making one cap' at a time the BIII would likely do fine. Start pulling the shot and start steaming while shot pulling. Finish beverage and immediately build the next PF and start the again. IF OTOH you are attempting to steam 3 cups of milk (24 ounces) all at once it's going to have challenges, as would any smaller (sub 3L or so ) steam boiler machine.

I won't get into the relationship of total tip opening area in relation to available steam and steam velocity and quality.

I won't get into the relationship of total tip opening area in relation to available steam and steam velocity and quality.

Excellent information from Mike, I will just add that I played around significantly with steam tip openings on my BIII to find the point where the heating element could keep up with the pressure drop, not to go below 1.0 bar. I settled on three .9mm holes in my steam tip and it will maintain pressure for well over a minute, certainly ample steaming for a large volume of milk. My boiler is set to cycle on at 1.2 and off at 1.4 bar.

fitzcoffee wrote:OK, here's the dilemma. I do like the convenience of no flushing or surfing on the DB machines. My wife won't tolerate anything too technical either so we want a machine that simply makes a great coffee and steams milk really well.

Adrian, have you considered other DB such as the Alex Duetto or the Vivaldi II? They are in the same price range as the Brewtus (at least in the states). I have a Vivaldi II and it has crazy powerful steam and I'm running on 15A economy mode. The other thing I would say is that my wife loves it. I think she would look at the Brewtus and freak out. She really didn't like using my Silvia with the complicated purging to get to steaming. The Vivaldi is a dream for her. Lock in the PF, push a button, steam while it brews and done. The VII has volumetric dosing as well although most people don't use it in actuality.

Read some of the posts on s1cafe.com if you want to get a sense of the community around the Vivaldi. Lots of happy owners out there. Mini is a pourover. Regular is plumbed in. Again we've really loved the plumbing in aspect.

I've had a Brewtus for about a month and have no complaints about the steaming power. My boiler won't drop below 1 bar even when doing larger amounts of milk. I believe the steam tip is different on the 2010 models.

From the zcafe.ca site: "Latest shipment of 2010 models comes with new Gicar PID with Blue led lights, higher grade polished Stainless Steel body and the new single hole Steam Tip as a standard."

This is apparently true in the states, too.

Thanks for your advice - very helpful and good food for thought. Sounds like the Brewtus could be powerful enough afterall. the Duetti is the machine I want but here in Ireland it's over half the price again of the Brewtus. Any more replies welcome.

cheers

Adrian

Your answer lies in your own question

fitzcoffee wrote:My wife won't tolerate anything too technical either so we want a machine that simply makes a great coffee and steams milk really well.

While I do not consider cooling flushes to be very complicated, for a brew and go solution the Brewtus would be your best option. I am not up on the European specs for the machine, but given you will be running 220V, the recovery time on the boilers may be faster. Your stated usage should be well within the abilities of the steam boiler. Pull a shot, steam one drink worth of milk, pull another shot, steam another drink worth of milk. I doubt you would every outpace the recovery rate of the machine.

In the interest of providing additional information for the Brewtus Steam tip, as I received my machine in December of 2008 and WLL provided me with the replacement single hole tip. I upgraded from the NS Oscar which has a 2.3l boiler and greater steaming ability, I was interested in at least better steaming power than the 1.5mm single hole tip provided from the Brewtus.

WLL happily provided me with several blank tips to experiment with, and to give you some idea of options, here is the calculations I did:

Single hole, 1.5mm = 1.76715mm squared.
Double hole, 2x1.5mm = 3.5343mm squared.

Single hole, 1.0mm = .7854mm squared.
Double hole, 2x1.0mm = 1.5708mm squared.
Triple hole, 3x1.0mm = 2.3562mm squared.

Single hole, .9mm = .63617mm squared.
Double hole, 2x.9mm = 1.27234mm squared.
Triple hole, 3x.9mm = 1.90851mm squared.

As you can see things change drastically with small changes in hole diameter. The double hole 1.5mm tip will deplete the Brewtus boiler rapidly. I found the three hole version @ .9mm worked well so I did not try three holes at 1.0mm (ran out of tips!) but on paper I think it would work out rather well, if someone wanted a bit more power. Math whiz's feel free to correct me if needed!