Hi there - and thanks for a great forum!

I'm about to purchase my first real espresso machine and have been studying like good little top boy. Let me sum up my needs and findings:

- It needs to be compact! Either low depth (if I place it center table) or narrow width (if I place it in the corner).
- I don't want to upgrade in a year, so the machine must be able to grow with my skills and tastebuds.
- I will be making a fair amount of milk drinks (espressos for myself, but cap's and lattes for most friends).

I have been looking at the following machines:
- Bezzera BZ07 (either the S PID or DE auto).
- Vibiemme Domobar Junoir HX.
- Lelit PL60 Plus T.
- Lelit PL62.
- Ascaso Duo Steel.

As you can see, I have a mix of HX and double boilers (and even a boiler/thermoblock combo in the Ascaso). I have been reading app. five thousand posts about 'HX vs. DB', and my very simplified conclusion from all those studies must be that:

Double boilers might have a little edge on the HX when it comes to the quality of the brew (or at least consistency of quality), and HX has an edge on DB when it comes to steam capacity.

OK, whether or not you agree with my conclusion, I would really like you to help me out with understanding what the difference in steam capacity means in practice.

You see, being a total newbee, I have no clue how the machines above will perform IRL. Let's fx compare the two Lelit models: 1.500 ml. HX tank vs. 400 ml. dedicated steam tank.

I understand that the 400 ml. tank will run dry sooner than the bigger HX tank. But how will this affect me in practice? Please help me by painting a(n approximate) picture of times and processes!

- Fx how many cappuccinos can I expect to pull on the double boiler before it runs dry?
- How long time does it take to regain steam when it has run dry?
- How about the HX - does it run dry as well, and how long should I expect to wait then?

All thoughs and experiences are welcome! Looking forward to some input that can help me make the right decision!

None of the machines you mentioned is a DB. The Lelit and Ascaso are thermoblocks and the Bezzera and Vibiemme are HX's. Dual boilers are machines like the Rocket R58 and the Vibiemme double domo.

With both a DB and an HX like the Bezzera or Vibiemme it's possible to make a lot of cappuccinos. Rebound time after steaming will be shorter than you will need to prepare the next puck. The only problem will be making really a lot of cappuccinos after each other (10+) because of the small boiler and the drop in grouphead temperature but it won't affect the steaming.

If you don't want to upgrade soon than don't buy the Lelit or the Ascaso. They are way lesser machines than the Bezzera and Vibiemme. If you want a machine with a smaller footprint and great capabilities then also have a look at the BFC Junior Plus Levetta. In America also known as Lavalentina or Ala di Vittoria.

How many milk drinks will you make at most during a session? Unless you're opening a cafe it may be only academic to ask how many milk drinks will run a steam boiler dry.

I wouldn't think of HX or double boiler having an edge in shot quality or steaming for home use. Because you're new you don't know it, but you will adjust your barista technique to the machine you have. Either type of machine can consistently produce excellent espresso. Either kind of machine can produce steam on demand.

For very small footprint and great performance for espresso and steaming I'm very happy with the vintage HX Olympia Express Maximatic (aka Coffex) I bought and restored. You can find excellent gear like that in full working condition if you're patient and watch online sources.

I agree with the other posters that, unless you're opening a cafe, you're not likely to notice an issue with steam capacity with "practical" usage.

However, I do think this board tends to downplay the complexity of using an HX. I've owned an Expobar Office Lever for close to two years now. It's not a top-of-the-line HX, but it's a standard, E61, "stainless steel tank-like" machine. I've installed Eric's grouphead thermometer, and I've taken apart the machine to install a thermosyphon restrictor. I've gone over the reams of info on this site about how to manage HX temperature, flush-and-go vs flush-and-wait, "dragon" vs non-dragon, etc. etc. And, at this point, I've "tamed the beast" and I'm able to consistently reproduce my desired 201 temp.

A couple weeks ago my office got a Breville Double Boiler. From the first time I went up to use it I got a great shot, and managing the temperature means clicking a button up or down. Granted, I haven't tested the temp accuracy with a Scace portafilter, but just judging by the taste it's very consistent. (As an aside, I think the Breville DB is an amazing machine for the price, but I don't want to get too off-topic).

I guess my point is, having considerable experience with both an HX and a DB, yes, after a while, you can get great, consistent results from both, but why bother with the song-and-dance of an HX when a PIDed DB makes it so much easier?

Thanks guys for your swift replies. So, when I read a critique on smaller, prosumer DB's having less steam, then it's actually nothing to worry about... Great!
If I just am able to serve, lets say, 8-10 cappuccinos in succession, then I'm set!

Thanks for your buying advice. I did briefly have my eye out for the BFC Junior Plus Levetta - until I saw the price tag - it costs almost twice what my local dealers demand for the VBM and Bezza...

As for the Lelit PL60 plus T - are you sure about the thermoblock? The website says steam boiler: http://espresso.lelit.com/modello/pl60plust/

Regarding steam from blocks... It's bad because... Lower pressure, right?

PS, the reason I'm considering the Lelit is the PID... None of the other machines have that.

Regarding steaming power, the only thing that really matters is how you intend to use the machine. The machine my office had BEFORE they got the Breville DB was a Breville Barista Express, which uses a thermoblock. I actually really liked the steaming capability on that machine because it was super easy to get great microfoam, but it was considerably slower than a machine with a dedicated boiler.

Thus, if you intend to do lots of entertaining and plan to make a lot of milk drinks at once, steaming capacity matters, but otherwise for home use it's pretty much a non-issue.