I've been served quite well by my Mazzer Mini (and an assortment of lesser burr grinders for other brewing methods) for years, and at the time I thought the Mazzer Mini would last me a lifetime. Surely it would, but the TGP and other comments about some of the latest grinders really has me thinking.

Recently, I had an opportunity to play with an LM FB80 along with a Robur. I have experience with a Super Jolly and of course a Mini, but really nothing beyond that. I know nothing about the Max Hybrid, but the Versalab M3 really excites me for some reason.

So, my question to you all is this: All other variables aside, will a jump to a Max be that noticeable? I truthfully felt my home setup matched the quality I've achieved through an LM + Robur combo, though admittedly not with the same consistency.

Right now, I'm leaning toward the Max Hybrid based on opinions here and the TGP. Any thoughts?

Not to break your budget, but another TGP-class contender is the Compak K10 WBC:


From Compak K10 WBC vs. Mazzer Robur taste test

Weeks have gone by and we're still undecided whether its espressos are distinguishable from the Robur's. It's close, that's for certain. The optional hopper gives it a more kitchen-friendly look, but it's still taller than the Cimbali Max Hybrid.

I made the jump from a Mazzer Mini to a Cimbali Max Hybrid and have often said that was the single greatest improvement I have ever made to my espresso.

FWIW, I also have a Mahlkönig K30 Vario . . .

The Mazzer Mini is a great grinder. I regret upgrading from my Mini. I read the TGP too and got sucked in, going from a Mini to a SJ. In my opinion the differences are exaggerated. When you go beyond the Mini, I feel the huge jump in money and inconvenience is not sufficiently offset by the very small improvement in taste.

A slightly better roast or good distribution and tamp will make a much bigger difference in the cup (and these are almost free).

That's just my opinion of course. Since this is a serious hobbyist website, you will hear people defending their $2000 grinder purchases as the "single greatest improvement I ever made". All I can say is, since there is so much hype around this subject these days, I think it would be prudent to "try before you buy".

Endo wrote:Since this is a serious hobbyist website, you will hear people defending their $2000 grinder purchases as the "single greatest improvement I ever made".

Since I am the only one in this thread who has said . . .

zin1953 wrote:I made the jump from a Mazzer Mini to a Cimbali Max Hybrid and have often said that was the single greatest improvement I have ever made to my espresso.

. . . I hope you will permit me to respond. Actually, my Cimbali MaxHybrid was $795, a far cry from "defending [their] $2000 grinder purchase." One thousand two hundred and five dollars far, to be exact.

If you look at Chris' Coffee Service website, you will see that the Cimbali MaxHybrid is presently $895 less a 15% discount. That means the price is $760.75 -- less than I paid for it. If you compare that price to a new Mazzer Mini ($659), I wouldn't hesitate recommending anyone spend the extra $100!

Yes, the Mazzer Mini was a significant step up the quality ladder from my Gaggia MDF. IMHO, the Cimbali MaxHybrid is an equally significant step up from the Mazzer Mini. As always, YMMV.

Cheers,
Jason

Endo wrote:All I can say is, since there is so much hype around this subject these days, I think it would be prudent to "try before you buy".

If someone wants to go that route, they can find a used Super Jolly on eBay or Craiglist and install a new set of burrs. If after trying it themselves they decide all the talk is just talk, then flip it. Chances are they would recover all of their investment.

Jason, it was actually your post that made me seriously think about the upgrade.

Dan, the Robur is monstrous. I read all the threads here talking about how monstrous it was, but I really didn't get the scale until I saw it in person.

I'm leaning towards doing an upgrade, though I understand a qualitative difference depends on a lot of factors. Having spent the past several years really focusing on roasting, multiple brew methods, etc. I'm back to trying to get that extra 0.05% of excellent that makes everything worthwhile. My last SO shot of a fresh roasted Ethiopian Misto Valley that will keep me on an enthusiastic search for at least a few years.

I digress. Any other thoughts would be appreciated.

Everyone agrees there is an improvement as you go up on grinders; but the extent of the improvement is contested.

My opinion, backed by some experience, is that the difference is very modest when using a forgiving, comfort food espresso blend. At the opposite extreme is pulling shots from a light roasted SO. Quite frankly, with a Mini, this is mostly going to be more of punishment than treat. With the Compak, I wouldn't hesitate pulling shots from any coffee at any roast. I might not like it; but I know for certain I'll taste the coffee as it is, and won't be running to the sink, ever.

I'm not alone in noticing this. The espresso blends of the high end stores have all taken a lot more risks in the past two or three years, as large conicals (mostly Roburs) have become the standard grinders.

The Max is a hair less consistent than the large conicals, but it can also take on any coffee.

another_jim wrote:Everyone agrees there is an improvement as you go up on grinders; but the extent of the improvement is contested.

One point that may be overlooked isn't the improvement in an absolute sense, but purely an improvement in consistency. For example, the grind setting for the Robur barely moves week-to-week. If I want to change the taste profile, I'll change the dose 1 gram up/down and 8 out of 10 times the pour will be just fine. With the Mini, I ceaseless fiddled with the grind setting and manipulating the dose demanded another grind adjustment.

Given time and a forgiving blend, I have no doubt that I could pull nearly identical espressos on the Robur and Mini. But on the Robur, I have a chance of getting it right on the first try, and not nailing it by the third try would indicate something's wrong and it's not the grinder. For the Mini, getting it on the first try would be a blessing from Heaven and the third would still be a pleasant, unexpected surprise.

ChadTheNomad wrote:I'm leaning towards doing an upgrade, though I understand a qualitative difference depends on a lot of factors. Having spent the past several years really focusing on roasting, multiple brew methods, etc. I'm back to trying to get that extra 0.05% of excellent that makes everything worthwhile. My last SO shot of a fresh roasted Ethiopian Misto Valley that will keep me on an enthusiastic search for at least a few years.

Since you put it that way, you sound like the perfect candidate for an upgrade from the Mini.

I was just thinking of those who might not be quite as enthusiastic as yourself. I just have gotten the impression lately that the benefits of massive grinders have been "oversold" to the average espresso enthusiasts. I thought a different opinion might be good for those who are not necessarily looking for that "God shot" at whatever the cost.

The comments about buying a used SJ and reselling at a very small loss is a good one as well.

I would be interested in hearing from anyone else that has made the upgrade from the Mazzer Mini to the Super Jolly.

I have also been contemplating an upgrade from my Mini. I'm often trying to chase defects out of my espresso... darker roasts can tend towards ashy (especially in the crema) and light-roasted single origins are more likely to give me lemon peel than candied oranges. This is with fresh, properly-rested beans from marquee roasters, clean equipment, and plenty of experimentation with the key parameters. I also replaced my burrs recently to ensure I wasn't suffering from dull burrs.

This forum has convinced me that the Cimbali Max Hybrid would result in a large change in taste profile (for the better, generally)... however I have grown accustomed to the aesthetics and ergonomics of a hopperless Mazzer.

With the SJ being a commercial-use (albeit, entry-level) standard, I'm holding out hope that it will outperform the Mini in a noticeable way. I also note that very few forum regulars still use Minis, though some key contributors are happily humming along with their SJs.

On the other hand, it's hard to justify the purchase if I'm only going to get a very slight improvement over the Mini as indicated by Endo.

Any testimonials would be appreciated.

I'd be interested in hearing reasons why going from 58mm burrs to 64mm burrs, in what is essentially the same grinder design, would produce such a huge difference in taste.

I think someone mentioned something about speed and burr design being different. I assume slower is better here? Even if the rotation is slightly slower, since the burrs are bigger, wouldn't the tangential speed at the burr perimeter (exit) be almost the same?

I did some "back to back" taste comparisons when I had both machines. I didn't notice much difference. Maybe my tastebuds are not as good as others here? Perhaps I needed to try a few more blends?

Unfortunately, I have since sold my Mini, so I can't do any more comparing.

Endo wrote:I'd be interested in hearing reasons why going from 58mm burrs to 64mm burrs, in what is essentially the same grinder design, would produce such a huge difference in taste.

Who claimed there's a huge difference in taste?

If you're an accomplished barista, I think the difference is small for anything from the Super Jolly and up. However in terms of ease of use and consistency, I found the difference between the Mazzer Mini and the Titan Grinder Project class conical grinders plainly obvious.

Endo wrote:Perhaps I needed to try a few more blends?

Some blends do indeed reveal more than others. I intentionally avoid "forgiving" coffees when testing grinders.

Who?? Are you kidding? Here's just one of the quotes from the "Titan Grinder Project":

"The other reviewers liked the Jolly as much as the conicals. Personally, after all this, I'd be loath to go back to the Mini or grinders in that class; but I would have no problem living with the Jolly or any of the other review grinders."

There are lots of other similar quotes in the 16 pages or so of the TGP.

The general impression to many people is that the Super Jolly is amazing and the Mini now sucks (although it was rated a perfect 10 only 5 years ago, it now can't win one round in the TGP style grinder wars).

I'm just saying, people are getting a very one sided view these days, and buying huge expensive grinders based on these comments. I feel a little more realistic perspective is definitely required.

I wonder if others share my opinion?

When I upgraded from the Ascaso i-mini to the Compak K10 I saw a huge difference. So yeah, size makes a difference in the kitchen and in the cup

Endo wrote:The general impression to many people is that the Super Jolly is amazing and the Mini now sucks.

I wouldn't say either.

I've said the Super Jolly represents the turning point of the cost/value curve, especially in terms of ease of use and consistency. You could spend more, but you'll realize proportionally smaller benefits. The difference between the Mini and Super Jolly is not huge, but it's clearly demonstrable. The difference between the Mini and big conicals is more dramatic (again, especially in terms of ease of use and consistency).

Given the equipment you are using now, I would not hesitate saying that upgrading to the VersaLab grinder would be an excellent investment. You will get the convenience of the hopperless grinder, the compact size, etc. It is a no-lose situation, if you can afford it.

Adrian

If you want to see a significant improvement, you'll have to make a significant jump.

In that regard, I would choose the Compak K10 WBC (if you like the taste of conical), or the Anfim Super Caimano (if you prefer flat burrs) over the Versalab, if money is no object.

I recently received the Versalab M3 and have put the two Macaps away. I was crazy enough to purchase both the doser and doserless Macap M4's.

I find myself using a brush to remove the left over coffee with both Macaps, which I don't do anymore with the Versalab. Because space is a premium in San Francisco area, the Versalab is more suitable for me due to its compactness. I home roast and have commercial coffee frequently, so with the Versalab, I can change coffee on the fly, without resorting to two grinders.

Another_jim had a less then stellar experience with Versalab. I only have the Versalab for one month, so I can't say much for its durability. Laura at Versalab has always answered my e-mails and questions. So far, the grind has been excellent. When I first used the Versalab, the wife thought it was a different coffee.

I also have got a re-badged Bregant with 64mm burrs from craigslist inexpensively and restored it to taste the difference larger burrs make. There is a difference. Not good nor bad, just different. The pours are more forgiving, in that I get less side squirts without elaborate distribution procedures as seen with the naked portafilter.

Often I wonder if the taste differences are just placebo effect, once the grinder is of certain quality. I still have yet to conduct a randomized, double blind, placebo controlled, prospective study to confirm my hypothesis. But in the meantime, I am happily enjoying the coffee.

Hi all. At the risk of flogging a dead horse, I'd also be interested in hearing any comments from people with experience with Minis and Super Jollys. I've been on the lookout for a second hand SJ but have just bought a second hand Mini only because the asking price was criminally cheap. I know I can recoup the money by onselling it. My attempts at using it suggest it needs new burrs and I wonder if I should bother or keep pursuing the SJ. Of course I'd love a higher end grinder but I am constrained by budget and availability here. So any further comments on the Mini vs. SJ would be greatly appreciated by me.