Hopefully I am able to ask something a bit new and refreshing. Let me know if there are links that I missed on this topic. I have pretty much narrowed down my machine choices(vario grinder ) but had an underlying question. Now obviously the SBDU will have a compromise on either temperature instability(if I steam first) or crema dissipation and lack of latte art(if I brew first). I am however a patient man for now and would like to know if dissipated crema effects the taste of a milk based drink( I also dont make more than 2 drinks at a time if that). I have heard milk based drinks should feature the milk and its microfoam, sweetness, texture etc. My main concern is that I hear from people who upgrade to HX that their worst shot is on par with their best shot from SBDU. Is this more of a consistency/increased barista skill or does the ability to steam and brew at the same time,allowing less crema dissipation effect the taste? I am not looking for machine suggestions but some resolve to this question. I am more of an americano guy but do enjoy milk based drinks on occasion.

How much milk do you use with a "shot" of espresso? If you're making a double or triple macchiato or a 4-oz "Gibraltar" you'll taste (and feel) more of the coffee than you will if you are adding a single shot to 16 oz. of steamed milk. Some of the more experienced baristas can chime in, but, at least for me, crema is about mouth-feel and is not very pronounced in the taller drinks.

How close is your budget to a good, used entry-level HX machine? If you're within $200, you might want to consider the OE Pharos. Mine is on order, so I can't more than echo the early reviews that suggest that it is a top-notch grinder.

Well I have yet to venture into "home barista" so all of my drinks are from local coffee shops. If at starbucks I order latte's because the cappuccinos taste bad but if at a local coffee shop I usually get cappuccinos, the medium/grande variety. You have shed some light on the issue. Texture/mouthfeel does make sense. Since my wife is usually the latte drinker and I the americano that may help. That being said I may be able to stretch for a bezzera/silvano/oscar/expobar or similar but if I don't need to than I will enter this addicting hobby with a gaggia classic and vario.

Anyone else have anything a bit more definitive or share in agreement with Jeff?

jmreeves wrote:Anyone else have anything a bit more definitive or share in agreement with Jeff?

On this forum, getting answers to questions usually assumes that you already did some research (and searches on the forums). I leave it to you to tell whether it is the case or not.

I'll assume you already read (from the How-Tos and FAQs):
- http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-guide-machines.html
- http://www.home-barista.com/hx-love.html
- Why are HX espresso machines so popular?

Your questions are many. I'll try to tackle them:

jmreeves wrote:Now obviously the SBDU will have a compromise on either temperature instability(if I steam first) or crema dissipation and lack of latte art(if I brew first).

Correct, except for the latte art part: you won't be able to do latte art if you steam first, as the foam/milk will split appart while you pull your shot.

jmreeves wrote:I am however a patient man for now and would like to know if dissipated crema effects the taste of a milk based drink( I also dont make more than 2 drinks at a time if that).

Take this as the point of view of a non coffee expert, but still from someone who used a Silvia (a SDBU) for 2 1/2 years:
If you do only two drinks and you are patient, I would say that a SDBU could still fit the bill. If you make more drinks than this, you will notice a flatter/bitter taste, while time passes, as the coffee looses its most volatile aromas and gets colder. This said, milk can hide many sins. Hence, doing two milk drinks on a SDBU is more of a convenience issue, IMHO.

jmreeves wrote:I have heard milk based drinks should feature the milk and its microfoam, sweetness, texture etc. My main concern is that I hear from people who upgrade to HX that their worst shot is on par with their best shot from SBDU. Is this more of a consistency/increased barista skill or does the ability to steam and brew at the same time,allowing less crema dissipation effect the taste?

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning. If a shot from a HX is better that one made from a SB, it probably has more to do with the fact that most HX uses the E61 temperature stable group instead of a usually temperature unstable cheaper group on SB. Notice that you can buy a SB with a E61 group (QuickMill Alexia). HX usually provide more features than first thought: ability to steam/pull shots simultaneously, usually have a E61 group (temperature stability), control over water temperature (by mean of a longer/shorter cooling flush). HX can also usually provide hot water, while it may not be recommended to do so while pulling a shot (to keep the boiling water at a stable temperature during the shot). HX proponents also believe in water being fresher, as the volume of water in the HX tube is renewed a lot quicker than in a bigger volume SB, but to my knowledge this as never beem clearly demonstrated.

jmreeves wrote:I am not looking for machine suggestions but some resolve to this question. I am more of an americano guy but do enjoy milk based drinks on occasion.

You may want to look at HX machines like a Bezzera BZ99 (discontinued?) or BZ07 ($1200) (or BZ10). The latter looks a lot better to me: a promising HX machine, well built, relatively temperature stable and relatively cheap compared to other good HX. Another option would be the Alexia ($1200) (or PIDed Alexia, add ~$300); while it is a really good choice for espresso only, it doesn't have a water tap (if this is where you intend to get you americano hot water from) and it is a SBDU. This QuickMill Silvano ($1000) might also be of interest.

To get more machine recommendations, you will need to specify your budget.

I'm not going to suggest a machine since I've only used one...it's a 1977 La Pavoni Europiccola which is a very small single boiler machine with a manual pump. Usually I drink straight shots and americanos but I also make cappuccinos and my observation is that crema doesn't really dissipate in the time it takes to steam milk after pulling a shot. The real problem with having a single boiler seems to be if I want to make more than one cappuccino in a row because I have to pull all the shots first and then steam all the milk second, because steaming milk overheats the machine then it takes quite a bit to cool down even with me applying a cold wet cloth to the group head.

So I think if you just make one americano for yourself followed by a latte for your wife you could make do with a single boiler machine...but if you ever make more than one milk drink at a time you'll be wishing for a HX or Double Boiler machine.

Wow Louis well explained Yes, I have read the links you have posted and was never able to really find an answer to whether quickly adding milk to espresso via HX or DB effected the taste(yes, I see it effects other characteristics like latte art) but with your explanation of the E61 brew group it makes a lot of sense why the jump from SBDU to HX would effect shot quality. If I stick with a SBDU I will probably get a PID but will presumable still suffer from a few +- degrees fluctuation while pulling the shot? Possible to live with? I think so, atleast for my first machine and especially since I will have a whole lot of barista newbieness to overcome That being said I wouldn't mind an HX at all and my budget is around 1000. I am in love with the quickmill models and the bezzera bz02. I also like the silvano alot.If i pushed my budget slightly, I do like the bz07 and the Alexia.

I kind of want to limit my machines to what 1st-line and chriscoffee carry.

Thank you entropyembrace. I may just go with the SBDU since an americano and latte a day are about what I need if that.

As with many other equipment/technique dependent endeavors entry level espresso machines and grinders present a steeper and more difficult learning curve than better gear. In the case of espresso and espresso-based, milky drinks there are also limits to consistency and the probability of pulling a really good shot.

SBDUs fall in the beginner/cheap category.

Grinders can be limiting. But the Vario is a good enough grinder to feed a pretty good HX or a double boiler without forcing much compromise.

Forget SBDUs. An extra few hundred makes a BIG difference. Spend the most you can (reasonably) afford on a machine -- whether hx or db. You'll learn to make consistently good drinks easier and faster. In addition, you'll have the capability of pulling and making more drinks.

Spend a little too much to get what you really want and you'll regret it until your next paycheck. Go cheap and buy the minimum and you'll regret it as long as you own it.

BDL

I agree with the advice above and offer this handy summary: How to choose an espresso machine and grinder at the "right" price.

I used a Gaggia Classic for about 1.5 years, and I was able to get what I think were good shots from it, but I also made a lot if changes. Biggest change was probably adding a PID, but I also added a preheater (Gaggia's have small boilers), a pressure gauge and some other stuff.

One advantage of the small Gaggia boiler is it heats fast. So, I would pull a shot, turn on the steam switch, go pour the milk, steam, and then make my drink. I could steam fast enough so I still had good crema when I made the drink.

The pain was to make a second milk drink, I had to cool the boiler down to brewing temps, and then start again. I also had the advantage of having a PID, so I know the boiler temp, and when it was ready to pull another shot. Without a PID, I don't know how you would know when to pull the next shot.

I recently got an HX machine, and for milk based drinks it is much easier.

Randy