I've been thinking about this for a while and didn't know how to put it, and it may still not sound like I want to, so please be gentle. Everytime I read a thread about a newbie asking what we think about this 200$ gaggia or saeco or another brand, I'm just a bit worry about the answer that come out of this forum....most of the time if I were that newbie I would never come back, since most of the time the answer look like it's impossible to get a decent coffee if we don't have that e-61 hx machine or that 400$ grinder or that perfect bean blend roasted yesterday and certainly not ground more than 15 seconds before it's put under the right pressure. Sure all those comment will help make a better espresso but It's like we forgot our journey that brought us to here, and maybe with good intention we just want to make this journey as short as possible to the newbie asking question so he can get to the coffee nirvana the soonest, but the journey is part of the fun. Should we be a little bit more open minded and remember our first step, and admit that not everybody will want to achieve the barista skills that some of us have achieved. I think that this forum is a wonderful source of knowledge and should be accessible to all, even the one who are not willing to invest 1000$ now or never in this activity. And please don't tell me that if you don't want to invest you are better buying coffee in coffee shop, because even with preground coffee and a 300$ (refurb)machine I have been able to produce a better espresso than 70% of the coffee shop around, even when I was living in the Little Italy in Montreal and most italian I knew used a similar setup. The process should first and foremost be fun, and it's certainly possible and more fun to upgrade in small step following the evolution of our taste.

Just my 2 cents

Robert

Here is an ultra low budget ($70) equipment suggestion. Not so long ago, I discovered MrCoffee espresso machine (http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product....d=10285449) in the office and was quite surprised that it was actually capable of making drinkable cappuccino.

It's comparable to an average Starbucks and certainly beats filter coffee. For cappuccino, I'd limit the milk amount to 2oz (enough for one cup). You can forget about microfoam, etc., but on the bright size, there is no need to preheat the machine or wait to switch between steaming and espresso making.

I don't know, I think it's pretty fair here. What ends up happening is that a lot of people come with some preconceived notions about what they want to get and want affirmation from others. Certainly the price is a choking point for many, but this is an enthusiasts site. I came to this board as opposed to others so that I could skip some steps in my espresso journey and I'm glad that I did, others may have differing experiences.

A lot of people insist that if it tastes good it must be OK. I think that's only true to the extent that ignorance is a great mask for many ills. I could make excellent espresso from my $80 Delonghi pump machine, the only problem was it would only happen once out of every 100 tries. I can make excellent espresso from a Caravel or Pavoni 99 out of 100 times and it helps to reinforce that the exception doesn't make the rule.

It's harsh at first to be told that you're wrong, but it's so much sweeter to learn how to be right.

There are many ways to enjoy coffee and not all of them are expensive. Assuming you already have decent, fresh, already roasted beans, only a tea kettle, a cheap burr grinder, and a plastic Melita filter holder and filter separate you from a nice drink. Similarly, you could use a French press, a $25 Aeropress, or several other methods to produce your cup of coffee, and it could be excellent.

Espresso is a relatively expensive way to prepare coffee; below a certain point what you are making is not espresso but simply "drek." Call it what you want, call it starter espresso, call it mediocre, call it marginally acceptable, but in reality it is NOT espresso. In order to make even low end espresso you need at least an acceptable way to grind the coffee and a way to turn it into espresso.

Telling people that it is fine to go buy some very cheap Breville "espresso" steam toy, combined with a blade grinder (or even worse, pre-ground coffee) is (maybe) going to motivate some people on the margins to see this thing through to where, perhaps, they will get true entry level equipment, which I guess is your point. But I think that is silly. With inadequate equipment they are not really making espresso, they are making a bad version of "strong coffee."

That is not what we are about here. We might not try to get everyone to have "ideal" equipment, but there is a level of equipment that without which one cannot make real espresso. And there is no point in encouraging that approach here, since there are much cheaper ways to make acceptable coffee, if not exactly espresso.

ken

OK,

As a NEWBIE I have to speak up. Yes, some of the comments and prevailing attitude here is very elitist. I think many posts have the air of turning up a nose at the newbie and automatically going "there" with the "if you ain't spending $1,700 on a prosumer machine and buying the Rocky as a minimum you don't have the right to say you've tasted real espresso". Yeah... from the POV of a lurker and now member, that's what you guys sound like. Belittling comments like "drek" and "steam toy" may be appropriate, but you're not welcoming us newbies with open arms here.

That being said, don't forget most of us are probably here for a reason. Me, my journey started with a garage sale Gaggia Carezza discarded by some rich persons yard sale. My office mate and I bought some Lavazza, and then Illy preground and discovered that the "drek" we were slurping was sooo much better than anything we've have out of a drip machine or even *$!! We soon discovered the inconsistency of a machine at this price point and that's what let us to educate ourselves. We wanted to make more consistent shots, minimize the bitterness, and maximize the crema.

The average newbie here would be shooed away easily by your dismissive comments and snobbery. I'm a bit more thick skinned. Maybe my annual salary allows me to buy a prosumer, or maybe it doesn't. But should you treat me in such a way that I'll have given up on the pursuit before getting a chance to be informed and discuss the craft? Just things to think about.

When going through college I paid my way by selling stereo equipment. You may have heard of some of the brands: Mark Levinson, B&O, Nakamichi (just dated myself), Martin Logan, etc. I saw how the full timers and long term career salesman belittled the newbies as they came in the store. Yah... sure showed them didn't you? Showed them not to spend money in our store! Wooo-hooo! Congrats.

Food for though and my 2¢ worth.

Joe

mb1k wrote:OK,

As a NEWBIE I have to speak up. Yes, some of the comments and prevailing attitude here is very elitist. I think many posts have the air of turning up a nose at the newbie and automatically going "there" with the "if you ain't spending $1,700 on a prosumer machine and buying the Rocky as a minimum you don't have the right to say you've tasted real espresso". Yeah... from the POV of a lurker and now member, that's what you guys sound like. Belittling comments like "drek" and "steam toy" may be appropriate, but you're not welcoming us newbies with open arms here.

That being said, don't forget most of us are probably here for a reason. Me, my journey started with a garage sale Gaggia Carezza discarded by some rich persons yard sale. My office mate and I bought some Lavazza, and then Illy preground and discovered that the "drek" we were slurping was sooo much better than anything we've have out of a drip machine or even *$!! We soon discovered the inconsistency of a machine at this price point and that's what let us to educate ourselves. We wanted to make more consistent shots, minimize the bitterness, and maximize the crema.

The average newbie here would be shooed away easily by your dismissive comments and snobbery. I'm a bit more thick skinned. Maybe my annual salary allows me to buy a prosumer, or maybe it doesn't. But should you treat me in such a way that I'll have given up on the pursuit before getting a chance to be informed and discuss the craft? Just things to think about.

When going through college I paid my way by selling stereo equipment. You may have heard of some of the brands: Mark Levinson, B&O, Nakamichi (just dated myself), Martin Logan, etc. I saw how the full timers and long term career salesman belittled the newbies as they came in the store. Yah... sure showed them didn't you? Showed them not to spend money in our store! Wooo-hooo! Congrats.

Food for though and my 2¢ worth.

Joe

Just because you want something that is not espresso to be espresso does not make it so. This is not elitism, this is reality.

I'm not a golfer, but I could imagine going out on a golf course equipped with several golf balls, a T-Spoon, and a rubber mallet. With some practice I could probably get a more cooperative ball to go into an intended hole at least a small percentage of the time. I might even think that what I was doing showed more skill than what I'd seen at the local miniature golf course. But was I really playing golf? I don't think so.

ken

Let me make an analogy from the world of Hi-Fi. You can buy an Ipod and canal earphones for around $200 to $250 and get a level of sound reproduction that is impossible from speakers and amps unless you pay several thousand dollars. So should you throw out your non hi-fi speakers and amps and use only earphones? If sound quality is the only consideration, absolutely.

But lots of people just want the music loud, and not necessarily hi-fi. And lots of people want lattes without giving a damn how good the coffee tastes.

That being said, this is a hobby site, and we do care how the coffee tastes. So we tell people what it takes to get real espresso. At the moment, that's $500 for a very PITA Gaggia and Lux, or $1000 for a less PITA Silvia and Vario, or $1500 for a civilized basic HX and Vario.

We're not being discouraging, we're telling the truth.

Jim & Ken,

I've never been a fan of sugar coating anything in my line of business. If my baby is ugly, don't be afraid to tell me my baby is ugly. I understand your POVs, but...

Terms like "drek" and "mediocre" are fairly derisive and insulting no matter how accurate. If you don't think "mediocre" is insulting, I dare you to go talk to your wife or better half right now and say "Hun... in our marriage/relationship you've been mediocre". Go ahead. Do it.

I just got done reading the super auto thread and for the most part it's been handled very well. The tenor and spirit in that thread is just about right, that's a good example of something positive happening between perfectionist H-B'ers and newbies.

another_jim wrote: So we tell people what it takes to get real espresso. At the moment, that's $500 for a very PITA Gaggia and Lux, or $1000 for a less PITA Silvia and Vario, or $1500 for a civilized basic HX and Vario.

I object. As a newbie and owner of "less PITA Silvia and Vario", it takes much more to make a decent espresso -- proper technique. As it turned out, for several months, I was making sour tasting lungos instead of regular espresso because of my misunderstanding of the requirements. With enough determination, one can learn the technique with MrEspresso and a simple grinder before moving on to nicer machines. In retrospective, maybe spending $200 on a class would make better sense than spending the same amount on a PID...

Maybe I'm different, but I would easily pay $200 for a proper class if offered nearby!