HB wrote:The problem with espresso in America today isn't Starbucks; the problem is that the majority of Americans know nothing better than "Starbucks grade" espresso even exists.

I agree, with the proviso that even if a sizable portion of Americans know (or suspect) there is something better, they lack access to anything better . . .

Dear Newbies,

Please feel free, with the blessing of all the experienced members here, to place this stamp on any and all of your current and future espresso related gear:



...
Now, if there was anything else you wanted from HB, like good espresso; you're most welcome to stay.

As a testament to the professionalism found at HB I'd just like to note that on most forums this conversation would have devolved into some serious fecal slinging by this point.

As a member of various auto, audio/video, exercise, computer, nutrition, and other forums I have to wonder if those who think the environment here is harsh are completely new to online forums in general. Perhaps I just haven't found the "Hugs and Coddling" forum yet. Seriously though, this is probably the most civilized forum I belong to.

This site is almost solely responsible for my progression from ultra newb to my current status of..... advanced newb? I started out at CG and still have an account but never use it. There are good articles over there but as for the forums, well.. the information and general signal to noise ratio here is just far superior.

I can totally understand why someone might feel a little burned coming here at first. People come to this forum and others with certain mis..err...preconceptions about espresso and the gear involved. The problem often is that the average Starbucker thinks they know good espresso. It's not their fault. Starbucks and 95% of other cafes can't make an espresso worth feeding to a dog. Mind you I doubt any dog would enjoy good espresso but that's another thread. What I'm saying is that most people don't know good espresso because they haven't tasted it. Making good espresso is tricky business and your chances of doing it with poor tools are well... poor. It can be done but it's more likely fluke than anything else. So when experienced members here take flak for being discouraging to new members it makes me smile for those experienced members are actually trying to save you from the inevitable discouragement of producing drek with your mediocre gear.

nixter wrote:Mind you I doubt any dog would enjoy good espresso but that's another thread.

You haven't met Daphne, my chocolate lab . . . definitely prefers Vivace, for example, and not crazy about Peet's . . .

I'm a little confused by this *$ talk. Yes, they serve espresso, but almost noone goes there for espresso but for watered down sweet milk drinks that have some evanescent coffee taste.

Marvin

sure, it was just an example. I'm pretty confident in my assertion of 95% of cafes serving drek though.

nixter wrote:As a testament to the professionalism found at HB I'd just like to note that on most forums this conversation would have devolved into some serious fecal slinging by this point.

......... Seriously though, this is probably the most civilized forum I belong to.

This site is almost solely responsible for my progression from ultra newb to my current status of..... advanced newb? I started out at CG and still have an account but never use it. There are good articles over there but as for the forums, well.. the information and general signal to noise ratio here is just far superior.

I can totally understand why someone might feel a little burned coming here at first. People come to this forum and others with certain mis..err...preconceptions about espresso and the gear involved.

......Making good espresso is tricky business and your chances of doing it with poor tools are well... poor. It can be done but it's more likely fluke than anything else. So when experienced members here take flak for being discouraging to new members it makes me smile for those experienced members are actually trying to save you from the inevitable discouragement of producing drek with your mediocre gear.

+1 = I've generally avoided my former golf architecture forum due to self-important posters and their bickering that literally could last YEARS.

I skipped right over the entry level equipment and my first shot ever pulled (thrown down the sink of course ) was with my current Anita and thanks to to kind advice I get here regularly. The $$ spent was far more then I had ever contemplated for coffee but I realize again through this board that it was a great investment.

zin1953 wrote:I agree, with the proviso that even if a sizable portion of Americans know (or suspect) there is something better, they lack access to anything better . . .

In some locales this may be true but overall I disagree. The majority of Americans simply don't care about quality espresso but rather seek out convenience. The proliferation of drive-thrus in the Pacific Northwest while there are many quality driven cafes struggling to keep their doors open supports this view. I know, I own and operate two struggling quality driven cafes. My next location will have a drive-thru.

Been a good thread. IMO if a newbie is scared away by the truths usually proffered here they likely don't have the passion required to put in the time and energy required to harness quality espresso anyway. If you can't take the heat, stay away from the portafilter!