Scaring newbies away!!! - Page 3

by **lsjms** on Sat Jan 23, 2010 9:17 am

Honestly, I think the managers of this forum should get folk to answer 20 questions before accepting their membership.

Water quality
I find the second post in this thread(and it's not unique) quite depressing. I just think how sad that the writer could not just post the link but felt the burning need to be rude as well.

by **Bluecold** on Sat Jan 23, 2010 9:30 am

This isn't a coffee helpdesk, this is a forum, which means for "place of discussion", not "post here all of your questions and we will figure it out for you for free because we have nothing better to do".

So it is expected that people search before asking questions. Or at least show that you made effort to figure it out yourself.

PS. I came here as a newbie and i learned here that it is totally possible to make very good espresso with 200 Euro worth of kit and good coffee.

by **mikekarr** on Sat Jan 23, 2010 9:41 am

This forum appeals to and keeps the newcomers who are ready to learn. The ones that want an easy answer and a quick fix will not care for the tenor of conversation and leave. This is good, it really does help to be technically minded to appreciate and be able to contribute to this board. That is why the signal to noise ratio here is great and why I read most of the forum posts.

This is not a newbie forum, but clearly there is great appeal to a certain kind of newbie.

by **zin1953** on Sat Jan 23, 2010 10:42 am

Bluecold wrote:This isn't a coffee helpdesk, this is a forum, which means for "place of discussion", not "post here all of your questions and we will figure it out for you for free because we have nothing better to do".

True, but nonetheless many of us do try to help . . . in no small part because it's human nature to "take the easy route" and ask, rather than research. And long ago I came to the conclusion that to expect the impossible (or at least the unlikely) leads to frustration; it's better to accept what is possible/likely and go from there. But that's me; YMMV.

Bluecold wrote:I came here as a newbie and i learned here that it is totally possible to make very good espresso with 200 Euro worth of kit and good coffee.

I had -- as regular readers know -- a machine and grinder that cost me less $500 (approx €350 at today's rate) and made pretty good-to-very good espresso drinks from it for 25 years . . . I always tell people they do NOT need to spend thousands and thousands . . . .

But I will tell you: the espresso drinks I make now are much better! Is that because I now have spent thousands? In part, yes. But it's also due to me being significantly better at my skills, at what I -- the "4th M", if you will -- am doing. My brother-in-law, who owns my old kit and uses it daily, was making $#!+ when he first got it, but has steadily improved with experience . . . and he got his equipment for free! :wink:

Cheers,
Jason

by **Ken Fox** on Sat Jan 23, 2010 10:49 am

HB is not by any stretch the largest venue for online coffee discussion. I don't know the figures (although I am sure that Dan does), however Coffeegeek.com has many times the number of readers and posters and threads than one finds here on HB. I find the level of discussion here on HB to be considerably more advanced than what I have found on other sites, which is a very large part of why I continue to participate here, and don't participate on the other boards. I'm sure I am not alone.

I don't think we should be rude to newcomers who want to learn, but at the same time, as long as relatively advanced posters spend their time here, this is where people seeking information will ultimately gravitate. If the board is dumbed down to the point where little useful information is exchanged, it will become more of a blind leading the blind situation, which is what I usually find when I stray over to other coffee boards.

Some people profess to be seeking information, but what they are really seeking is acceptance and a warm fuzzy place. HB is probably not that place, and I for one hope it never becomes like that, where "acceptance" is valued over real information. There is more than one place to go for coffee related information, and depending on what one wants, a choice can be made that will have an impact on both what one learns, and how quickly one learns it.

ken

by **GC7** on Sat Jan 23, 2010 11:54 am

I have previously started a similar topic about the condescending attitude of some posters. However, if you really want to learn about coffee and espresso there is no better place. My suggestion is to just take out of here what you need, contribute what you can if you really have something to add and don't be intimidated.

Ken was correct about coffeegeek. There is much more generic newbie posting and information over there. If you want a more mechanistic and scientific basis for making good coffee, espresso or roasting your beans then this is the place.

by **Randy G.** on Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:26 pm

I wrote a reply to this thread yesterday (it would have been the first) but it sounded elitist so I deleted it before posting... but:

Take a look at the logo at the top of this page... "Your Guide To Exceptional Espresso." It is towards that goal that lured most of us here as regulars. There are plenty of folks here who spend a lot of time helping newbies and patiently answering their questions. We got the experience from traveling down the long road. We don't guess.. we KNOW that there is no way you will get exceptional espresso (at least not consistently) from a Silvia and a Rocky. It might be drinkable, and it may even be better than anything from a coffee shop within 100 miles of you, but exceptional? Not in my experience. You can play at it, and it will help develop skills that will serve later, but that's about it.

I only speak for myself, of course. I used a Rocky and Silvia for about 7 years before stepping up to a Vibiemme Domobar Super and a Mazzer Kony. Night and day difference between the two. So many of my comments and responses are based on that. Virtually all the pump-driven, single-boiler machines will work the same, albeit not all of them will last as long nor have the same resale value. With Silvia's price point, and the percentage (around here) of users adding PIDs to them, the total cost makes little sense, and so we often recommend stepping up for a little more to get a heat-exchanged-equipped machine. If a newbie comes in wanting to spend "under $500" to get everything they need to make "expresso" at home and later find that $700 is the price.. just for a decent new grinder, and they feel snubbed, disappointed, or are scared away... oh, well. If they come here to be educated, there are plenty of folks here ready to assist.

On the other hand, if they drop in here without some sort of background in espresso and do not take the time to at least read through the FAQs and get pissy when they are directed in that direction, oh well.

This forum has a professional scientist who took ground coffee samples from a selection of grinders and had them analyzed on a scanning electron microscope! YES, REALLY! So when a newbie comes in here and is told, politely but bluntly, that a $325 machine will not make very good espresso using pre-ground coffee from a can and that they need to spend at least $100 for a hand grinder, or at least $300 for an electric grinder, it's not our fault that they now own a burst bubble. Might as well drop into the local Porsche agency and ask if they have any nice, used 911's with low mileage for around $3500. They get pointed towards the discount used car lot. Around here we often point them to CoffeeGeek.com.

If someone says that they have $750 to spend and want exceptional espresso, I tell them to get the best grinder they can afford and a $30 Aeropress, and to save for an espresso machine. If that causes them to be scared off and not participate and learn here, then the odds are that they would have lasted long making espresso at home either. Espresso is not for everyone (See: "Are You Anal Enough for Espresso" Chapter 9 on my website). There are shelves all over the country where espresso machine go to collect dust, and eventually get sold at yard sales or donated to thrift stores. Looking at it from that point of view, we might actually be doing them a favor by scaring them off. Even Starbucks tossed hundreds of La Marzocco espresso machines into bins and sent them to metal recyclers because it was easier and cheaper to train employees to push buttons of super automatic machines, quality of the product be damned..

Scenario: Man walks into an insurance agency:
MAN: I am here for the insurance.
Agent: Did you bring it?
MAN: What?
Agent: The sample.. err.. specimen.
MAN: Yes
Agent: Where is it?
MAN: It's down in my car. Would you like me to bring it up?
Agent: No. That will not be necessary.
MAN: What!? Then why did you have me save FIVE GALLONS?
Agent: We wanted to be sure that you REALLY wanted the insurance.

;-)

by **Randy G.** on Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:29 pm

GC7 wrote:I have previously started a similar topic about the condescending attitude of some posters..

Condescending or realistic- the difference can be just a matter of the recipient's attitude and expectations.

by **RapidCoffee** on Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:34 pm

First of all, I am categorically opposed to condescension and rudeness on this site. When sitting at a computer, it is all too easy to forget that there is a person at the other end of the thread.

However, when newbies innundate a forum with low-level questions that have been asked and answered over and over and over again, it drags down the quality of the site. That's why many of us on H-B abandoned CG long ago. When 99% of the threads are some variation of "help me choose the best grinder for under $100", interesting discussion gets buried. After a while, the signal to noise ratio drops so low that experts go elsewhere. Do you want to see that happen on H-B?

Here is a wonderful resource that JR recently posted on a related CG thread. It's geared towards hackers rather than espressophiles or audiophiles, but clearly applies.

by **Dodger1** on Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:55 pm

My view on this subject is that there is a need for different sites, for each level of espresso expertise. I started out at CG and learned a lot from some very knowledgeable posters but as my knowledge increased, I became less and less enthralled with the ever present "I want a espresso setup for under $300" type of post. So eventually I graduated to this site and frankly simply skip most of the n00b posts because they're not relevant to increasing my knowledge and abilities.

I don't really believe that any of the posters here want to be rude but in telling a n00b's the truth, which most n00b's can't fathom; let alone agree with, they come across as being shall we say rather brisk, for want of a better term. Most of the newer espresso fans get the clue and quickly move on. However, those that stay and take the time to read and study can quickly get an invaluable education on the finer points of this hobby and the finer points is what this site is all about and why I'm a member.

Just mho.


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