Hello Everybody,

I've just joined this forum and it feels great to be part of this wonderfully active community. I was in Italy last year when I got hooked on to espresso's and cappuccino's. So am a newbie who has a lot of information from reading about a 1000 pages of reviews & opinions and no practical experience unlike the many contributors out here. I'm hoping some of you will take time to help me out with your expert opinions.

After saving since last year I have a budget of $1800 for both grinder (I've decided on the Vario) and espresso machine. With regards to the espresso machine based on my budget and current promotions I've narrowed my choice down to the following E61 HX machines based on feature set (see picture). I'm also thinking that ease to maintain & service - please share your thoughts

From my recent response to Guidance for new espresso machine with budget around $1200:

HB wrote:The differences between the various E61/heat exchanger models are about build quality and features, not raw performance. So you could simply choose between your favorite E61/HX model based on vendor/popularity/looks, or go with a non-E61 like the Bezzera BZ07 (I reviewed it for WIRED magazine, if you're interested in my blurb on it).

It's worth noting that the La Nuova Era Cuadra II is on sale for $1095 at 1st-line. You may notice that new models have steeply discounted introductory prices; it's a common tactic to get critical online discussion of a new model, so such prices don't last very long. I've never used the Cuadra, but CoffeeGeek has an extensive owner's thread about it if you want more more more details.

As noted in How to choose an espresso machine and grinder at the "right" price, your budget is right at the sweet spot of the price/performance curve. Another consideration is the who is selling the model you're considering; espresso equipment is a small niche market and the post-sales support is just as important as the features/price.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Dan! I read through your post and the La Cuadra is now at the top of my list.
I sort of consider this purchase in the same league as TV, Hometheatre, car ? so the idea is to make it last at least 5-6 years without upgrading. Do you think this machine is built well enough to last especially when you consider the plastic used in it (side panels, etc.).

Also, I've read differing opinions of the Mater vs Jaeger vs Sirai P-stats. Since my choosing a HX-e61 is primarily based on temp stability how much of a difference do you think P-stat will play in this regard?

Now I'm too..o...orn between the ROCKET Cellini PP at 1450 and the La Cuadra.... help my soul!!!!

Reportedly the Jaegar pressurestat is more reliable than the MATER and the Sirai is more reliable than both, but in terms of temperature stability, the pressurestat is irrelevant (see What is the "right" boiler pressure setting? for explanation and HX Heaven or 1½ Boiler for PID-based HX espresso machines). That said, all pressurestats eventually wear out, they're easily replaceable, and thus the model installed in a given espresso machine would not sway my buying decision.

Compared to Quickmill and Vibiemme in the US market, the Cuadra is a newcomer. However, like the plethora of other E61/HX choices out there, it's a safe bet that it has acceptable performance and reliability since many of the components are industry standard. Also keep in mind that all of your choices are repairable, so it's entirely reasonable to expect them to be running well 10+ years down the road assuming regular maintenance (i.e., descaling once or twice a year, gasket replacement every year or two, pressurestat replacement every few years).

+1 with everything Dan wrote.

I'm all for HXs, prefer them for myself, have used one or another for decades, and chose my current M21 Junior (HX) when I could have as easily afforded a GS3. But I wonder:

• Why an HX? It's not the quickest, easiest route to adequate coffee, you know.
• Why not a DBPID? To be more specific, why not the obvious choice of the Breville BES900XL?

[There aren't right or wrong answers to these questions. Rather, they're an attempt at finding which type of machine will best suit this particular pilgrim.]

BDL

I agree with BDL. I have an E61 HX and I love it, but it DOES take some effort to get the "dance" down and to learn the quirks of temperature stability of any particular machine.

Also, if you do go ahead and get an E61 HX, I highly recommend Eric Svendson's grouphead thermometer adapter (check out the readme file here: http://users.rcn.com/erics/). While someone will probably accuse me of being a shill for him because I've recommended it often, it GREATLY eases the temperature control process of an HX. Even now that I have my standard flush routine down, if I'm making a couple drinks in succession, but perhaps a few minutes go by between shots, the thermometer lets me know if I need to do another flush.

why not the obvious choice of the Breville BES900XL?

My reasoning was I want to be able to maintain (de-scale, etc) the machine by myself. With the Breville this is not possible which is big factor in my not choosing it. Also, the build, plastic buttons, did not find favor with me. Also, I foresee pulling about 3-4 shots/ day for cappuccinos and a maximum of 2 back-to-back shots hence did not look at DBPID machines. In addition I like the control afforded by E61/HX machines in addition to their cooooool looks .

Just found out that the plastic panels on the la Nuova Cuadra II are ABS so quite capable to resisting radiant heat from the boiler (neoprene insulation would have been awesome). And I probably will be able to buy a different color of side panels to change the look of the machine in a few years. Maybe 1st-line will pay me for this marketing idea

Right now researching the build difference between boilers on the Rocket Cellini PP V1 & the La Nuova Cuadra II.
Does the Cuadra come with nickel plated boiler?
Do the end plates on the Rocket make a difference? And this really matter in holding up the resale value of the machine?

With wife rooting for Cellini and wallet loving the idea of saving $300+ on the Cuadra - this is one exciting battle...

sashaman wrote: Also, if you do go ahead and get an E61 HX, I highly recommend Eric Svendson's grouphead thermometer adapter (check out the readme file here: http://users.rcn.com/erics/).

Thank you Shashaman for sharing your opinion - which machine do you own?
I've read about Eric's thermometer in quite a few places so am planing to get one down the lane. I'm looking forward for the learning curve and hope it'll be kind to me.

Any Cuadra owners out there - could you please share if the boiler on the machine comes with re-settable high-limit switch?
Also, does the ULKA motor come pre-fitted with a Klixon (similar) for protection?

Thanks again

I own an Expobar Office Lever. I got it because at the time it was one of the cheapest E61s in the all-stainless exterior, "tank-like build" category. Frankly, I think you're going to be happy with any of your options. If I had to start over I think I'd get the Domobar junior - I think it looks great, having both boiler and pump pressure gauges is nice, and I like its small size. Since all your options are good ones, your choice is mainly going to be determined by which features are most important to you.

I decided against the Breville Double Boiler for exactly the same reasons as you. After reading tons about it I think it's a great machine, but I like how the E61s are much more easily user-serviced, and I greatly prefer the E61 design aesthetic.

A note about maintenance - a great trick I learned from Jim Schulman's Insanely Long Water FAQ is to refill the boiler weekly with distilled water (spiked with a small amount of tap water) so that I don't have to worry about descaling the boiler, which is a PITA. I don't normally use the hot water tap to make americanos or tea, so this is a really easy way to keep the boiler scale free.

One other thing not to overlook. Given the flushing routine on an HX, I didn't realize how often I would need to refill the reservoir. I lucked out because the Expobar has its reservoir on the left side, and given how my sink and cabinets are configured it's really easy to refill the reservoir - my machine sits to the right of my sink and I just use the hose extension on my faucet to fill the reservoir right from the tap. Wherever you place your machine, just make sure there is easy access to the reservoir so it's easy to refill.

In the cup quality depends to a large extent on how the temperature of the brew water changes during the pull, and that depends to some extent on the temperature and stability of the group. E-61s are a good and inexpensive approach to group temp stability. Add a good group thermometer, and you've at least got a start in figuring out when to and when not to pull. It's not the be all, end all though.

One of the pleasures or limitations of using an HX is learning the timing, sounds and other signs which allow fairly precise, on the fly, temping. It's not exactly rocket surgery, but it's not something you're going to have great control over within a few weeks -- or even a few months. It takes time and attention. Mostly attention. Constant attention. Never ending attention. Sensing a theme?

If you want good tasting steam, you're going to be doing a LOT of flushing; far more than you think.

Based on the little I know about the low end of the current HX market, I think I'd put the VBM Domobar Junior at or tied for first on the very short list. Depending on a number of factors like income and how driven you are towards making "exceptional espresso" at home, think about the low end of the HX market as a temporary stop.

BDL