I am posting this because the R58 does not seem popular on this board. I want to know more and why? I assume it's a price point thing, because I cannot see a difference in build quality since Rocket reinforced the tray and the $2700 price tag is pretty high.

I originally was focused on a Rocket HX, but the guys at three popular online retailers talked me into DBs, which puts Alex Duetto III and Rocket R58 within my interest range. Here's my take on it:

Rocket R58 pros:
1. long steam wand
2. no PID on front
3. smaller drip tray allows for more cup clearance
4. ability to use as plumbed or not plumbed
5. easy translation to my experience with LM Stradas, etc.
Rocket R58 negatives:
1. stupid corded PID thing is ridiculous. Why can't it be wireless? How about an app? Or how about a hidden PID? Don't get me wrong, I'm all about PIDs, I just don't like the configuration.
2. does the tray drip around the area that is closest to the machine? I can't tell.
3. Giant "R" on knob. I mean, why not put Meo's photo on there while they are at it?
Neutral:
1. calculating temperature at group based on PID (I mean, you can just use a thermometer, it's so easy as to be a non-factor).
2. Anything in this price range is going to be good and I'm overthinking this.
Questions:
1. preinfusion capability?
2. potential for a new v3 model to be release in 2014? I can wait.

Considered:
-Ruled out the Duetto because of the PID on the front of it, low cup clearance, bent steam wand (ultra picky, I know), and giant drip tray that is just too big and really takes away from the looks of the machine for me.
-Ruled out the Spaziole because it's ugly and doesn't have the optional plumbing capability.
-Ruled out levers in the same price range because they are fussy. They seem cool but if I can have only one machine, I'm probably not going lever. I do love them though!

Thank you in advance for your advice, but please don't mention grinders. That's a separate topic.

Preinfusion is built into the E61 group. You hold the lever half-way for a few seconds to preinfuse then pull the lever all the way up to start the pump. The V2 model fixed the shortcomings of the first release. Rocket doesn't need to upgrade their machines that often, so I wouldn't expect a V3 for many years.

Rocket builds some of the best machines on the market and they focus on the style, quality and performance of their machines. The R58 reviews I've seen speak highly of the machine. If you appreciate the R58's design, then I'm sure you'll enjoy the machine for years. If you don't like design, then the Duetto III and other machines are an alternative.

Not an owner, but...

If you want a DBPID without a permanently visible display, the R58 is -- I think -- your only choice. I expect the cord's capacity to irritate will diminish once you start storing it and the controller/display under the machine -- which is the idea. If it's further comfort, you can fit a stock, unlabeled water knob to the steam valve, or have wooden knobs made for your machine.

Like you, I haven't heard much about the R58, but based on what I have heard and read would expect it to be representative of its class -- E-61, plumb in/out, high-end, prosumer DBPIDs. Even though people obsessively search for meaningful distinctions, the dirty secret of espresso machines is that once you do break them into broad classes they're usually a collection of the same small group of components, and there's seldom much difference in performance. So don't forget to reject the VBM DD and Vetrano 2B as well.

Cheap sarcasm aside, the ultimate decision comes down to small distinctions like... well... a concealable display. That's not a bad thing.

What are those sales people seeing? You seem sophisticated enough for HX vs DB to be a non issue. That's an observation by the way, not a recommendation.

GRINDER GRINDER GRINDER

BDL

boar_d_laze wrote:Not an owner, but...

If you want a DBPID without a visible display, the R58 is -- I think -- your only choice. I expect the cord's capacity to irritate will diminish once you start storing it and the controller/display under the machine -- which is the idea. If it's further comfort, you can fit a stock, unlabeled water knob to the steam valve, or have wooden knobs made for your machine.

Agreed. It would be totally hilarious for like 5 minutes to have a standard water valve on the outside, like you use for your hose, lol.

boar_d_laze wrote: Like you, I haven't heard much about the R58, but based on what I have heard and read would expect it to be representative of its class -- E-61, plumb in/out, high-end, prosumer DBPIDs. The dirty secret of espresso is that once you do break them into broad classes they're usually a collection of the same small group of components, and there's seldom much difference in performance. So don't forget to reject the VBM DD as well.

Again, I totally agree.

boar_d_laze wrote: Cheap sarcasm aside, the ultimate decision comes down to small distinctions like... well... a concealable display. That's not a bad thing.

Totally.

boar_d_laze wrote: What are those sales people seeing? You seem sophisticated enough for HX vs DB to be a non issue. That's an observation by the way, not a recommendation.

I don't see a big problem with HX and I've had experience pulling on a Cellini as well as some fancy pants LMs and other DB brands at Counter Culture, Peregrine, etc. Regulating the group temp on an HX is easy, period...though you do waste some water in doing it.

Here is the +/- on it from the online sales peeps: The sales people felt that DBs were more heat stable and gave the additional capability for smaller adjustments to temperature. They also have more steam pressure (which is totally a non-issue, I've used a Cellini and steamed milk just fine). I have also pulled 5-8 shots in a row on a Cellini with no problem on heat stability, etc. In fact, I would expect the hx to perform better in shot stability over multiple shots taken in a row, but maybe not for steaming. I do not see myself having time to make adjustments to temperature, going through enough coffee to dial in different temperatures by a single degree, etc. I just want some balanced shots to make my day enjoyable. Well, maybe a ristretto or two.. I assume that most of my adjustments will be to the grinder and will be based on coffee roast and degradation over time.

boar_d_laze wrote: GRINDER GRINDER GRINDER

Lolol! I freaking hate the grinder debates. I've been playing with a Major and a Robur for a month and I am having trouble appreciating the difference aside from their size and cost. The extremely experienced guys I'm using the grinders with also claim conicals are substantially different from flat burr, but we are always doing so much dialing in that we achieve about the same flavor and I can't tell the difference. I need to explore this more but it's something for me to do in person as I just am not buying the online hype. I have to admit that I liked my shots on a Cellini with a Baratza as much as on a Strada with a Robur.

I'm starting to wonder if my taste buds are terrible, which would be great because I could totally use the extra cash savings!

damonbowe wrote:Lolol! I freaking hate the grinder debates. I've been playing with a Major and a Robur for a month and I am having trouble appreciating the difference aside from their size and cost. The extremely experienced guys I'm using the grinders with also claim conicals are substantially different from flat burr, but we are always doing so much dialing in that we achieve about the same flavor and I can't tell the difference. I need to explore this more but it's something for me to do in person as I just am not buying the online hype. I have to admit that I liked my shots on a Cellini with a Baratza as much as on a Strada with a Robur.

I'm starting to wonder if my taste buds are terrible, which would be great because I could totally use the extra cash savings!

Just FYI 1st Line has started carrying the Quamar large flat burr grinder, only $799 new.

You are messing with my mind!!! OMG GRINDERS!!!!

I owned an ECM HX Giotto Premium for 10 years. It was absolutely a beautiful machine to use. The only item to fail in that time was the P start in its 9th year of pulling 4 doubles daily.

I would be curious to determine if they are still using powder coated steel for their internal framing. I ask this because the only long term issue I had with the Giotto was rust under the drip tray. This was due in part to a stupid design of their drip tray. First of all, the tray lacked a back splash guard so water from the exit pipe just ran behind and under the drip tray to rust out the frame. Second, because the frame was not made of stainless steel it was prone to rust.

Today I watched a video on the R58 and judging from the video footage it looks like they are continuing to use powder coated steel frames...... if so watch out for rust.

The rust aside my Giotto is still in use by another coffee head.

That should speak volumes.

Rob

OTOH, The powder coated steel framing makes for a more robust frame, one that won't flex when inserting the portafilter. At least this is the case on my machine.

Yes that's probably correct. I just hope they have come up with a better drip try design.

SylvainMtl:

What gear are you using?