I've been reading a lot of reviews lately trying to decide what espresso machine to buy to replace my steam toy. My typical use would be 2 shots or caps every morning for myself and my husband.

The Silvia gets good reviews everywhere but I'm concerned about the learning curve, the speed of preparing 2 drinks and the fact that many of you have upgraded after owning one. The heat exchange and E61 features sound great, but I'm a little reluctant to spend over $1K without knowing much about "pulling shots". On the other hand, I don't want to purchase something inexpensive and have it not be much better than my Krups. I'm also considering a refurbished or used machine to keep the cost down, but concerned about how to assess the value of one.

I'm so conflicted!! Does anyone have suggestions?

Cassandra, what is your actual budget for machine and (more importantly) grinder?

In a strange twist of fate, many of the 'beginner' machines are more difficult to use than the 'prosumer' models. They skimp on the entry level machines so temperature management can be a bit of a voodoo process unless you get a PID installed. By the time you do that, you could have gone to a higher level machine and not needed the extra.

seymour wrote:I'm so conflicted!! Does anyone have suggestions?

That's what we have the most of!

Seriously, Cassandra, you've told us your approximate usage ("2 shots or caps every morning for myself and my husband"). Expect this to increase, BTW, as the quality of your espresso increases.) You have also told us about your present equipment (you list "none," but mention a Krups). Now in order for the suggestions to become free-flowing, we need one more vital piece of equipment: what is your budget? what are you comfortable spending, including a grinder?

Cheers,
Jason

Ah, the hard question -- $. I suppose I could spend $600 comfortably and $800 - $1000 (but that's risking divorce ). After reading all the posts and articles, I am leaning toward the Le'Lit P1041 (~$500) if it comes to buying a new espresso machine, mostly because of the brass boiler, but would like to spend less. I also have email out to 1st Line, Chris Coffee and Stefano in search of good used equipment. I'm somewhat mechanically inclined so replacing burrs on a grinder doesn't sound too bad, but I'm afraid of getting into the guts of a machine that does things under pressure.

The Lelit is supposed to be nice machine for the money. You could also get a Gaggia Coffee, Espresso or Carezza for even less money. But don't forget the grinder, without which you won't be able to make true espresso. The Lelit stepless burr grinder seems to be one of the best bargains for a little over $200. With that grinder and an entry level Gaggia, you'd be at about $500, which would leave you with some money to get a tamper, a frothing pitcher, cups, and of course some fresh coffee beans. That should set you up with all you need to make some very good espressos and cappuccinos.

seymour wrote:
I'm so conflicted!! Does anyone have suggestions?

~~~~Hello Casandra, You are getting some very good replies from these folks. What they are trying to tell you and their answers have been consistent (read between the lines= : - ) the grinder is more important than the purchase of the espresso machine. If you are on a budget, and who isn't, I'd suggest for you to purchase a used commercial grinder first. When I was looking to get into this hobby, that was my understanding (& it still is), that the grinder is far more important than the espresso machine, for if you have a good grinder and good fresh beans to grind with, on a properly tuned $300 espresso machine, you can pull shots on par with a machine costing thousands more

The grinder I bought last April was a well used Rancilio MD-50, a new set of burrs and I had $250 into it plus shipping. i would consider the grinder I have the minimum standard. There are other brands, read all you can about grinders and be on the lookout for a used machine. Ebay is a good place to look for a grinder to purchase. Use 'commercial espresso grinder' as your search criteria, or 'espresso grinder', 'espresso coffee grinder', etc.

Now for the machine, IMO, you want a heavy marine grade 58 mm chrome plated brass portafilter, single boiler will be cheaper than HX but not always yet usually. if it's a single boiler it's a vibe pump and you want (IMO) an adjustable OPV or the ability to add an adjustable OPV if the machine does not have adjustable OPV. Why?, if the over pressure valve is non adjustable and is set at 15 bars pressure, you wont be at the ideal pressure of 8.5 to 9 bars pressure. Most authorities on espresso pump pressure agree, 9 bars pressure. go to wikipedia and type in espresso and look at what comes up. Amongst all the info the pertinent details of pulling a good shot, the pump pressure is 9 bars, water temp at 200 degrees, w/the right grind, tamp beans you'll end up with a double shot 2-2.5 ounce in 25 to 30 seconds. All this was empirically arrived at when?, late 1940's?, by folks who have forgotten more about espresso than I'll ever know= : - )


If you buy a single boiler machine, PID is nice and you can find good used machines. Remember, when you have a new espresso machine and you pull the first shot with it, it's now a used machine= : - )

so that's my 2 cents, echoing a lot what others have said, buy a good used commercial grinder for the most bang for your buck/grinder allowance, and buy that piece of equipment first. The espresso machine is the least important piece of equipment in the equation but it is nice to have PID on a single boiler, adjustable OPV, 3 way valve (but 3 way valve is not necessary for a good shot)

FWIW, I did my homework when I was getting into espresso and found a PID'd single boiler machine with the aforementioned pieces already kitted. All I had to do was to use good beans and learn how to grind, dose, tamp. I can say from 9 months experience and I pull on average 6 doubles/day, fresh high quality beans is what you want to learn to grind with. You probably know this but you can't make good espresso w/pre-ground beans

Once you get your new grinder and you have an espresso machine to pull shots with, sit down with a pound of beans and your grinder and set the grinder to the finest setting and attempt to pull a shot. If you have a good grinder, no espresso will come out of your PF because the grind will be too fine. Now open the grinder little by little until you pull a double shot and end up with between 2 and 2.5 ounces of espresso (you will need a measure-graduated shot glass) in 25 to 30 seconds (approx)

Others may have better and different ideas but this was how I was taught, and those that taught them, they too followed the golden rule (espresso)



Jake
Reddick Fla.

So I've located a used Silvia, Rocky and base for $550. The owner says it is "a couple years old, retrieved from a pizza shop where people didn't know how to use it". What are the chances that something is wrong with it that will cost a lot to repair? How would I know if something is wrong? Is this too big of a risk for a newbie? Should I just go with the Le'Lit P1043 and Le'Lit grinder (approx. $700) for the safety of a warranty???

seymour wrote:So I've located a used Silvia, Rocky and base for $550. The owner says it is "a couple years old, retrieved from a pizza shop where people didn't know how to use it". What are the chances that something is wrong with it that will cost a lot to repair? How would I know if something is wrong? Is this too big of a risk for a newbie? Should I just go with the Le'Lit P1043 and Le'Lit grinder (approx. $700) for the safety of a warranty???

Would it be to much trouble to post a pic? If it is a "newer generation" Silvia, then i don't think you should have any big problems. The grouphead gasket might need to be replaced.

What i wrote below here is my experience from not knowing enough, and not asking the right questions. Bad luck of the draw as it seems.

I was in the same position as you a few months ago. I ended up buying a used Silvia, and Rocky Grinder. My used Rocky has so far been a real champ. I replaced the burrs (which was all too easy), and did the teflon tape mod. I am very happy with this purchase.

The Silvia on the other hand has been a total opposite experience for me. All to my own fault. I also bought it used, but i was unaware of how old the unit actually was. The machine was able 8 years old, and as an older model had a few "weaker" design issues. I have since replaced the boiler as it was leaking through the top (new boiler does not have this same design "flaw"). I then had lots of trouble getting dialed in, and my shot quality was sub par. Ended up that the pump was dying. This was a much cheaper fix at $60, but still added hassle. Then the grouphead gasket went. A real cheap fix, and something that needs to be replaced every couple of years.

With the new pump, the new boiler, and the cheap thermostat mod that i did i am pulling fantastic shots almost all of the time. And when i pull a bad shot it is usually my fault, and not Silvia's.

My point here is that if you are going to buy new, ask lots of questions. Age being a question that i did not ask when i bought mine.

I pull two caps each morning for my brother and myself. All in all i am happy with where i currently am, but the journey would have been better had i bought new, or a "newer" used machine.

30mins to warm up - Typically do my morning routine during this time.
15mins roughly to pull two shots and froth enough milk for two caps.

I was much slower when i first started, but it will take you no time to get dialed in to the silvia IMHO.

fyi the cheap thermostat mod is nothing special. It just helps me pull shots a near consistent temperature. I pulled the thermocouple out of a digital thermometer and screwed it under 1 of the screws from the clip holding the thermostats onto the top of the boiler. If warmed up properly, blank shot pulled to warm the cups, the shots i pull seem to be very consistent.

Hope i was of any help.

-Donovan.

Yes, thanks, it helps a lot to hear your experience. I am a bit concerned about buying something that is difficult to use or needs work since I don't know anything (aside from what I've read) about how these machines are supposed to operate.

I've uploaded several pic of the Silvia and one of the grinder as well.

Comments are greatly appreciated!

Once you get the hang of her Miss Silvia is very EZ to operate.

That Silvia appears to be a newer generation, and looks to be in good condition. You would have to open the top up (4 phillips head screws) to check it out more completely, but it looks good. I wish i had 1 of these models!!!!

If the machine operates without any leaks, and seems as if it is in good working order, it might be a good purchase.

I would backflush the machine with some cafiza asap. This is just good practice for regular maintenance anyway. Randy has a great write-up on his website for how to do this properly.

It does seem like a bit to get into when you are first reading about it all, but it isn't so bad once you get going. And in my opinion it is a lot of fun!!!!

Even though some of my family and friends make fun of me for spending the time and $, i still have lots of fun, and enjoy it. Plus i turned my brother into a believer. His lucky butt gets the best capas outside of a coffee shop for free. But he does make breakfast, so i guess it works out .

If you end up buying this please feel free to ask me any questions. I am still a noob, but my latest experiences with Miss Silvia might be of some help.

-Donovan

seymour wrote:I've been reading a lot of reviews lately trying to decide what espresso machine to buy to replace my steam toy. My typical use would be 2 shots or caps every morning for myself and my husband.

The Silvia gets good reviews everywhere but I'm concerned about the learning curve, the speed of preparing 2 drinks and the fact that many of you have upgraded after owning one. The heat exchange and E61 features sound great, but I'm a little reluctant to spend over $1K without knowing much about "pulling shots". On the other hand, I don't want to purchase something inexpensive and have it not be much better than my Krups. I'm also considering a refurbished or used machine to keep the cost down, but concerned about how to assess the value of one.

I'm so conflicted!! Does anyone have suggestions?

Is that 2 each, i.e. 4 per morning? Or two per morning?

You are rightly concerned about the learning curve of the stock Silvia, and of any of the single-boiler dual-purpose pump machines in Silvia's price-range or lower.

You can get an excellent hand-grinder for $75-$100. A hand-grinder would give you $100 to $150 extra to spend on the machine, even if you were to buy from the low end of the high-quality electric grinders.

Unfortunately for consumers, the price of good machines has gone up considerably, so that machines costing $700 eighteen months ago are pushing $1000 today.

Given your 2-4 per day needs, my advice would be to look for a used Ponte Vecchio Export.
Easy to use spring-lever that makes very good espresso.

Regards
T

I would have loved to have had this setup for my first espresso machine and grinder!

I'd say go for the Rocky + Silvia + base. In the absolute worst case, you can sell it for the same amount. If the group head gasket (where the portafilter locks in) has some give when pushed with a finger nail, just leave it for now. Otherwise put in a new group head gasket. You'll need to replace this yearly. Buy a digital appliance timer so that it can warm up sufficiently in the morning before you get up.

The only concern is how long it was in use and did they use softened water. You may have to descale it (which you should do every so often anyway, and it's not a big deal). For now, I wouldn't worry about it. Follow the previous posters advice on cleaning it up.

Burrs are likely just fine (certainly fine for now, you can replace them AFTER you get the hang of things). Get some fresh (and I mean from a roaster that puts a roast date on the coffee, not a best before date) coffee and have at it.

Mar

Thanks, everyone, for all the great advice. And thanks to HB for such an incredible site.

I've decided not to go with the Silvia/Rocky/Base (at $550 though it is a really great deal) because of the learning curve with Silvia. If anyone else is interested it's still posted: http://delaware.craigslist.org/hsh/967600135.html

Hi, I see that you have considered a Lelit for your setup. I've been in your exact situation about 3-4 months ago.
In the end I decided to buy a Lelit PL51, which is much cheaper than a Silvia (at least where I bought it). I didn't completely believed that the grinder could be that important, so I didn't buy it immediately.
But my shots were almost always weak, too fast, without crema and so on...
So I decided that it was time to get a grinder. Which one? A Lelit PL043 (here in Italy they don't sell the PL53, which is even better, since it's stepless).
Man, since the first shot it was a lot better that what I had been able to obtain up to that moment. Crema from the first second, 20 secs approx, decent flavour.
I know that there are few info about Lelit around, and I can't see why, since it's a great deal, IMHO.
Here a video.

Marco, your Lelit looks quite nice. I think that's the first video I've seen of one in action. Seems like a good, reasonably priced alternative to Silvia or Gaggia machines.

One suggestion I'd make is to keep the portafilter locked into the machine while it warms up. This keeps the temperature at the group higher and more stable. Just pulling a blank shot with the PF locked in probably isn't going to be enough to get everything warmed up properly. The pale crema on your shot may be caused by slightly low brew temps caused by the cooler portafilter leaching off heat as the espresso hits it.

You might also try grinding a bit finer if the shot is running too fast. Otherwise, everything looks good to me. Keep up the good work!

Thanks for your advices! This video is relatively old, actually I now do leave the portafilter locked while warming up and also the grinder is set up for a finer grind.
It's true, you can't find videos of a Lelit espresso machine anywhere, as far as I know at least. This took me to be dubious about Lelit in general, but in the end I'm very happy.
Only significant downside, for me, is that when you have pulled the shot and unlock the portafilter, there is still water in it. I don't get it: you can have a 3-way valve, but the valve don't have to empty the portafilter?
Maybe I'm confusing concepts?
I'm sorry if I'm not very clear, but it's late here