It will make you appreciate the upgrade even more when you do it in the future. Good luck.

Sir Anselm wrote:A little more than a year ago I bought a Silvia, got a few good shots out of it, but it really was quite a hassle. Today I "drive" a Vibiemme Junior DB and probably wouldn't want a Silvia even as a backup

But, if you make friends with her it's a really nice machine, the build quality is, in my opinion, exceptional at that price level.

I just bought a new Silvia V3 as a back-up to a very troublesome HX machine currently in for one of its' frequent repairs, and so far so good. It's a lark to pull a pretty good shot, just had to tune in the grind first. Steam is not problem since I don't do milk drinks, but maybe this is where you would see the primary difference?

FlyingShot wrote:I just bought a new Silvia V3 as a back-up to a very troublesome HX machine currently in for one of its' frequent repairs, and so far so good. It's a lark to pull a pretty good shot, just had to tune in the grind first. Steam is not problem since I don't do milk drinks, but maybe this is where you would see the primary difference?

No, didn't do any steaming on my Silvia

Although to be fair I did actually have a La Pavoni Professional in between the Silvia and my current Vibiemme. So it is possible that my experiences with the lever-machine made it so much easier when I switched to the Junior Db that I, perhaps unfair, felt that the Silvia was much harder to work with

Ok. At the risk off being cyber lynched I have a proposal for a first machine that won't break the bank. How about the Mr. Coffee ECMP 50 for around $80. For the non-professional, like me, it makes excellent espresso and great milk based drinks. I put it up there with the local espresso bar's coffee here in Niagara Falls NY and Ontario, seriously. I would like to hear from anybody that has actually tried it rather than people disparaging it because it is from Mr. Coffee. With a Capresso infinity grinder, also relatively inexpensive, my cappuccinos and espressos are awesome. Also I vacuum pack my beans with a food saver and this combo in unbeatable IMHO.

Ok, so now that I'm cutting my teeth with a Silvia, while I save for a real machine...

What should my next step be...

Requirements:

• I want a HX machine.
  
• I want excellent build quality, good looks, e61 group.
  
• I don't need a plumbed machine.
  
• Most important is Shot Quality!
  
• My price point is no more than $1450...and less is better!

I'm thinking Quickmill Anita, Bezzera BZ07, or ... Is the Anita worth the $400 difference? Is there something better in my price range? Is there something WAY better for slightly more? I'm not ready for a double boiler...and it has to be fairly Wife Friendly...though she keeps encouraging this hobby!

cheezerman wrote:Ok, so now that I'm cutting my teeth with a Silvia, while I save for a real machine...

What should my next step be...

Sell Silvia and get an HX machine -- now! Sell something else if you need more money.

As a self-inflicted victim of ignoring the advice on this forum and getting a Silvia as my first espresso machine, I can tell you that HB is right: the time spent learning to coax good shots out of Silvia is mostly wasted. I had my Silvia for only a month or so before upgrading.

I've come to believe that Silvia is a nasty newbie trap. Sure, some people have painstakingly learned to pull good shots on her, and I know of at least one professional barista who has a Silvia and says he can pull good shots with her (and I believe him -- he's really talented.) But the vast majority of newcomers really struggle with this machine. I suspect quite a few end up fooling themselves into believing they're pulling good shots while choking down flawed extractions every morning.

Your situation is a little different in that you paid very little for the machine. But I fear you're going to find out that there is such a thing as penny wise and pound foolish.

I assume your Silvia doesn't have a PID, so you'll have to learn how to temperature surf to get a good shot. While HX machine typically need to be flushed to lower the brew temperature before pulling a shot, the flush procedure is nowhere near as complicated as temperature surfing on a Silvia. You also have to jump through hoops to steam milk with Silvia, and the recovery time is quite lengthy. It won't be long before you start asking yourself, "Why can't I consistently pull good shots and steam milk on this thing?" Heaven help you if you have to make more than two milk drinks at a time. If you do manage to tame Silvia, most of that knowledge will be useless when you upgrade.

OK, if you really need time to save up for the HX machine, here's some advice: Buy the best coffee you can find, preferably from one of the specialty roasters recommended on this site. Make sure it's fresh. Get a bottomless portafilter so you can see if there's channeling, spritzing, haloing or other distribution problems. Get a gram scale and weigh your doses to the nearest 0.1g. Don't try to updose -- Silvia doesn't like that. Stay under 16g, preferably closer to 14g. Make sure the pressure is adjusted correctly. Learn how to temperature surf from the many Internet posts and videos on the subject. You have an excellent grinder, which is more than many Silvia owners can say. That'll probably help you with consistency.

And save every penny you can!

cheezerman wrote:Requirements:

• I want a HX machine.
• I want excellent build quality, good looks, e61 group.
• I don't need a plumbed machine.
• Most important is Shot Quality!
• My price point is no more than $1450...and less is better!

Well, there IS a part of me that thinks, since he ignored our advice last time, is there any point in offering advice now?


OK, so 1) re-read Dick's post; 2) I would take a serious look at the Bezzera BZ07 semi-auto or Bezzera BZ07 full-auto ($1,299). Pinching pennies, you may want to also look at the Bezzera BZ02 semi-auto ($949), but for looks -- personally -- I'd look at the BZ07 models.

Another model I'd seriously look at if I were you -- especially being somewhere on the Central Coast -- is the Salvatore One Black ($1,100). It's made in Solvang, and comes with a SIX-year warranty!

And yes, I'd look at the Quick MIll Anita ($1,450).

Keep in mind none of these are "true" E61 machines. In other words, they do not use the original E61 grouphead as designed and patented by Faema. They all use designs which are very similar, however, and I wouldn't even point this out except for your "requirement" above. Honestly, I'm just being technical, and I wouldn't give it a second thought if I were you . . .

Each of these machines will be different in the type/quality of shot they produce, however, and that is worth further discussion. (Except that I'm late to give my daughter a lift to school!)

Cheers,
Jason

Actually, the Bezerrra machines don't use an e-61 type group. They use a simple chunk of brass welded to the boiler and heated by induction from the boiler, as opposed to a thermosyphon design like the e-61 style groups. Bezzera groups also don't have a preinfusion chamber. However, they apparently require only a very short flush to be ready to brew, so that's an advantage over the e-61 design.

Maybe you should work with the Silvia for a while before thinking about an upgrade. Since you got a good price on Silvia, you should be able to use her for a while and still sell her without losing much money. Just because others have had trouble getting good results with Silvia doesn't mean you'll hate her. Give her a chance and you may find yourself pleasantly surprised.

Beezer wrote:Actually, the Bezerrra machines don't use an e-61 type group. They use a simple chunk of brass welded to the boiler and heated by induction from the boiler, as opposed to a thermosyphon design like the e-61 style groups.

The Bezzera BZ-07 also has a 50W electrical heater in the group, keeping it warm, so it is not passively heated. (See pages 9-10 of the PDF: http://www.bezzera.it/prodotti.php?lang=en&page=gamma&id=10&prodid=27)

UPDATE:

I've spent the last month playing with Miss Silvia.

I've been pulling some great shots! I'm actually quite pleased with myself. I'm getting to the point where most of my shots are drinkable, and 25% are really good! I can steam a pitcher of micro-foam in 45 seconds or less, and my latte art is developing! (slowly)

I'm frustrated and confused, however, at the lack of temperature control. I have no idea where my temperatures are, and good shots seem to happen at random. I gone through about 10 pounds of coffee this month, and I'm still trying to nail those good shots.

Friday I ordered a QuickMill Anita from Chris's coffee! I originally was calling asking if they had any floor room models at a discount, and they ended up giving me an amazing package deal on the machine and erics e61 thermometer!

So...I'm on my knees, begging for forgiveness! You were all right, but I still think I did the best I could, considering I got a good deal on the Silvia.

Now to learn a new routine...