www.wholelattelove.com: our caffeinated commitment to you

Rancilio Silvia Dilemma - it's a love/hate thing!

Recommendations for espresso equipment buyers and upgraders.

Link to "Rancilio Silvia Dilemma - it's a love/hate thing!"by d.f. on Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:37 am

I have never heard a more recommended machine that has been more panned than the Silvia. I am so confused! Please Help!

I have a local roaster in Cannon Falls where I live that gives me excellent, out of the hopper into the grinder into my big mouth fresh coffee. I am getting sick of the chain espresso (I drink it naked) and want to start at home. My wife does not share the same passion so spending $1000 for an espresso machine alone is out of the budget and question at this point. The Gaggia Classic and the Silvia seem to have the most quality parts for the price point. The Silvia has brass parts where the Gaggia has aluminum. I tried nespresso...yuck!

I am well aware of the finicky nature of the grind so will be purchasing a grinder within 3 months. In the meantime, I will use my Roaster and experiment with the grind.

I read home barista quite frequently but this is my first post. I fervently searched for an exclusive Silvia post and have yet to find one that can explain why this machine is so hated but still recommended.

HELP!

P.S. No, I cannot spend $1000 plus $399 for a grinder. I need to slide the espresso machine alone within that $600ish range. Am I O.L. for good espresso at home?
d.f.
 
Posts: 18
Joined: Dec 12, 2008
Location: Cannon Falls

Link to "Rancilio Silvia Dilemma - it's a love/hate thing!"by Bushrod on Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:58 am

I loved my Silvia for straight espresso. I only upgraded because we got a kitchen remodel so I seized my chance.

Spending that much money on one and using preground is profoundly stupid.
Rich A

LMWDP #131
User avatar
Bushrod
 
Posts: 277
Joined: Feb 21, 2007
Location: Alexandria, VA
www.caffefresco.us: passion · purity · people
www.caffefresco.us: passion · purity · people

Link to "Rancilio Silvia Dilemma - it's a love/hate thing!"by BAEvans on Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:07 pm

OK, I'll take a shot.
The Silvia (which I have owned and used for 6 months) is built of quality components, and at it's original price point of around $500 was a real deal. As the price rose, perhaps not so much.
The main problem is knowing and controlling at what temperature the coffee is brewing - the temperature control to the boiler has a wide "dead band" with swings of 20 degrees (F) or more between "heat on" and "heat off". In order to get a consistent temperature, it is necessary to use one of the "temperature surfing" techniques, such as waiting a specified number of seconds after the boiler heating light goes on after a flush brings cooler water into the boiler, or "reverse surfing" waiting a specific number of seconds after the boiler lite goes off after reaching its high set point.
A "PID" modification replaces the stock system with electronic temperature control, obviating the need for this process and rendering the machine much easier to use consistently, but raises the price above your limit unless you can find a good used PID'd Silvia. Searching forums here and other sites for "Silvia temperature surfing" will provide more details.
Secondly, the Silvia delivers high pressure brew water to the portafilter rather abruptly, giving the puck a bit of a shock. If the grind is not right, the distribution not careful, or the tamp not level, and if the portafilter is tapped or jarred after packing, the puck will fracture frequently, with fast sour pours and "spritzing" coffee due to channeling. Dose, distribution, and tamping technique need to be consistent and, perhaps, somewhat compulsive.
With experience, good espresso. High quality build. Professional portafilters and good steaming capability (with the limitations of a single boiler - waiting for temperature to come down after steaming before brewing another shot) without "froth aider" attachments. Good resale value for that reason. If you go with a Silvia, you will learn good barista technique and drink some good espresso.
At current prices, many recommending Gaggia as "serious" entry level now. I have no experience with those machines.

Bruce
BAEvans
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Aug 06, 2008
Location: Minnesota

Link to "Rancilio Silvia Dilemma - it's a love/hate thing!"by BAEvans on Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:28 pm

One more thing:
You WILL need a decent espresso grinder. Check the coffee forums for advice about an adequate grinder for espresso. Just avert your eyes from the discussions about whether this $1000 grinder makes clearly better tasting espresso than that $750 grinder. Entry level ESPRESSO grinders or good used grinders adequate to this job definiately exist. I used a Rocky with my Silvia. Trying to dial the Silvia in without the ability to change the fineness of the grind based on the previous shot (i.e. using some quantity of pre-ground coffee)will be an exercise in frustration. Also, the flavors and crema will quickly disappear from ground coffee.
Save up until you can buy the grinder to have at the time you start with the Silvia (or a Gaggia) and you will be much happier.

Bruce
BAEvans
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Aug 06, 2008
Location: Minnesota

Link to "Rancilio Silvia Dilemma - it's a love/hate thing!"by Randy G. on Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:48 pm

d.f. wrote:I am well aware of the finicky nature of the grind so will be purchasing a grinder within 3 months. In the meantime, I will use my Roaster and experiment with the grind.... Am I O.L. for good espresso at home?


With that plan? Yes! Silvia is hard enough to use (as is just about any single boiler machine) but without a quality grinder it becomes nearly impossible.

Blow the budget on a top-line grinder, and get something like an Aeropress, press pot, or similar to make coffee until you can afford a quality espresso machine.
Espresso! My Espresso!
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com
User avatar
Randy G.
 
Posts: 997
Joined: May 12, 2007
Location: Yankee Hill, CA

Link to "Rancilio Silvia Dilemma - it's a love/hate thing!"by Beezer on Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:23 pm

Right now, it costs about $600 to buy Silvia. This is actually about $100 less than it cost just a couple of weeks ago, apparently because the stronger dollar has allowed merchants to get a better deal on European products. However, that's still a lot of money for what is basically a well built single boiler machine.

In my opinion, you'd be better off spending less on the machine and getting a good grinder right away. For the cost of a new Silvia, you can get a Gaggia Coffee or Espresso and a Rocky grinder, and still have money left over for a tamper, beans, etc. Buying a nice machine and not getting a good grinder until months later will only result in tears of frustration. Get the machine and grinder at the same time, or be prepared to suffer months of bad shots and aggravation.

Oh, and don't forget to get good, fresh beans. I know you said you have a good local roaster, which is great. However, you might also want to experiment with some of the artisan roasters that sponsor this site, just to have a point of reference. I like to sample a wide variety of beans so that I can appreciate how different types of roast and different blends can result in a very unique flavors in the cup. Experimentation is a big part of the fun of home brewing espresso. You may find that you like beans from Intelligentsia, Barefoot, or Coffee Klatch better than what you can get locally.
Lock and load!
Beezer
 
Posts: 614
Joined: Nov 16, 2006
Location: Fresno, CA

Link to "Rancilio Silvia Dilemma - it's a love/hate thing!"by d.f. on Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:37 pm

This has been extremely helpful. You all have given me enough information to change course. I am going to purchase an excellent grinder first and then the espresso machine 2nd. I currently have a drip, percolator, french press, and (hey, no laughing) a K-cup machine for the m-f out the door quick cup although I mostly use my own beans. I frequently use them all. Getting a quality grinder will greatly enhance all of these experiences. I don't have too much patience so fussing with the Silvia for months before getting a grinder will probably make me sell it. I currently use a Cuisinart burr grinder and will now be looking for a better grinder to get ready for my new espresso machine within a few months. ( I don't make payments on credit card so it will have to wait)

Thank you all for you expertise!

Dan
d.f.
 
Posts: 18
Joined: Dec 12, 2008
Location: Cannon Falls

Link to "Rancilio Silvia Dilemma - it's a love/hate thing!"by Randy G. on Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:24 pm

Sounds good, Dan. I can also recommend the "Aerobie Aeropress." Cheap, easy, and delicious coffee!
Espresso! My Espresso!
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com
User avatar
Randy G.
 
Posts: 997
Joined: May 12, 2007
Location: Yankee Hill, CA

Link to "Rancilio Silvia Dilemma - it's a love/hate thing!"by Giuseppe21 on Sat Dec 13, 2008 12:32 am

I was just about to create a post about the quality of the Silvia and the fact that many people on this forum continually criticize it. Coming from another coffee forum where the Silvia is highly praised to this forum is like night and day. I'll begin by kissing up to the E61 snobs around here by saying yes your machines are almighty and nothing creates a better shot more consistently. Having said that, I will say that I am extremely happy with my Silvia.

One modification that the Silvia does need is a lower pressure adjustment. I've had mine for about five months now. It has been a bit of a challenge to get consistent espresso shots but I've got all of the variables down now and it brews and exceptional shot. I am at the point where I can get consistent shots all the time now. The biggest difference was after I lowered the pressure of the machine by turning the OPV down by one turn. That was all that was really needed to go from a good shot to a perfect shot. And I understand why Rancilio sends the machines out with higher than required pressure, it makes perfectly good sense as far as their sales and marketing, I just wish that I knew about the pressure effects sooner.

Nonetheless I can get my home espresso shots to be within 98% of the quality of the shots that I get from my favourite espresso shop. This is from my Rancilio Silvia combined with a Gaggia MDF grinder, and using freshly roasted beans from a local supplier/roaster. I give the machine a good 30-40 minute warm up, flush some hot water through her, good tamp and distribution technique, and I don't even fuss with temperature surfing. Considering my favourite espresso bar that I frequent when I am away from home has a LaMarzocco 4 group commercial machine, combined with a top notch commercial grinder, keeping the espresso machine on 8 hours a day for maximum temperature stability and my Silvia coffee machine combined with Gaggia grinder can attain 98% of the quality of the commercial setup is a testament of Silvia's capabilities. People can go on all day about how great their E61 machine works, producing shots with a hint of berries, caramel, chocolate, tobacco, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah...... . Attaining that extra 2 % in quality of shot (based on my experience) is minute in the overall scheme of things. You can get a great shot out of a Silvia and that's all you need to know. The Silvia can satisfy a large percentage of consumers and that's why it is priced reasonably well. I'd love to own an E61 machine, but I don't feel like moving up to that price range any time soon, and the Silvia is providing a very satisfying product for me so I have no need to look elsewhere. I wouldn't enter the market with a cheaper machine than the Silvia, I've tried them and only ended up being very disappointed. The Silvia is a great starting point for people looking for a quality product.

Getting the pressure decreased really helps on this machine. Best tip I could give anyone that owns one.
Giuseppe21
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Dec 06, 2008
Location: Canada

Link to "Rancilio Silvia Dilemma - it's a love/hate thing!"by HB on Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:41 am

Giuseppe21 wrote:I was just about to create a post about the quality of the Silvia and the fact that many people on this forum continually criticize it. Coming from another coffee forum where the Silvia is highly praised to this forum is like night and day. I'll begin by kissing up to the E61 snobs around here by saying yes your machines are almighty and nothing creates a better shot more consistently. Having said that, I will say that I am extremely happy with my Silvia.

I was also happy with the one that I owned. Below are the main reasons I'm less enthusiastic today:

  1. Price versus performance: The Rancilio Silvia represents the "knee" after which there are few espresso machine alternatives that will bring as significant an improvement to the cup. For many, the upgrade after Silvia is a keeper. Knowing that leads some previous Silvia owners to advise others to skip the interim step.
  2. Temperature control: The poor temperature control leads many to consider adding a PID controller. This additional expense brings the net cost within striking distance of the next class of espresso machines.
  3. Ease of use: Many recommend the Rancilio Silvia to new owners because of its performance, popularity, and good resale price, but it's widely recognized as not being newbie friendly.
I think the majority of the criticism from more experienced home baristas is because the Rancilio Silvia's overall price/performance straddles the divide between entry level espresso machines and the next major upgrade. One of my favorite quotable quotes related to this topic is from the Upteenth inexpensive grinder thread:

another_jim wrote:Newbies invariably attribute their inability to pull two identical shots in a row to the lack of sufficient equipment settings they can change between shots. The fact is that the entry level equipment used by newbies is much more unforgiving than the commercial equipment people buy after they decide they'll pursue home espresso. This creates a double whammy, the people with technique good enough to use entry level equipment have moved beyond it; and the people buying it will have their weaknesses mercilessly exposed. The upshot is that entry level equipment gets a lot of unfair criticism; and that newbies get a very long hazing learning to cope with it.


PS: For those following this thread, Rancilio Silvia with PID vs. competition on shot quality on this site and Machine advice - will I be happy with a Silvia / Why isn't the Rancilio Silvia getting a price drop? on Coffeegeek provide an exhaustive discussion of this topic.
Dan Kehn
User avatar
HB
 
Posts: 9899
Joined: Apr 29, 2005
Location: Cary, NC

Link to "Rancilio Silvia Dilemma - it's a love/hate thing!"by ddr on Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:01 pm

One thing you might consider is buying a used grinder off of Craig's list. I took a look and see this one: http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/bfs/940437286.html

It is a higher price than I would like to pay, but if it is in good condition that type of grinder can last a long long time (mine is much older and is great). I would keep my eye on Craig's list for a little while and see what pops up.

Take Care,
Dan
Dan
LMWDP #242
User avatar
ddr
 
Posts: 133
Joined: Oct 04, 2008
Location: Chicago

Link to "Rancilio Silvia Dilemma - it's a love/hate thing!"by Randy G. on Sat Dec 13, 2008 1:45 pm

Giuseppe21 wrote:One modification that the Silvia does need is a lower pressure adjustment.

Which Silvia? New models? Old models? Every one sent out from Italy? My old Silvia (sold about 18 months ago) was checked and was very close to the proper brew pressure from the factory.

If there is one adjustment to be made, it is most definitely a brew temperature adjustment. The original button thermostats make the user do a dance to get brew temp consistency that would make Michael Flatly jealous. Those cheap thermostats are an insult on a machine of that price and quality, IMO.

I've had mine for about five months now. It has been a bit of a challenge to get consistent espresso shots but I've got all of the variables down now and it brews and exceptional shot. I am at the point where I can get consistent shots all the time now.

Five whole months... And already perfectly consistent shots... :roll:

The biggest difference was after I lowered the pressure of the machine by turning the OPV down by one turn. That was all that was really needed to go from a good shot to a perfect shot.

PERFECT!? How many "perfect" shots have you tasted outside of the home? The sort of shots that make you not want to brush your teeth for a week. The deep, rich, sweet, lingering taste that makes you weak at the knees. That make your eyes roll up and hear angels sing? Come on... I have had two or three perfect shots (if you can even define such a thing) and with all my experiments and use, and time spent, and even PID'd, Silvia never came close to perfect shots.

Nonetheless I can get my home espresso shots to be within 98% of the quality of the shots that I get from my favourite espresso shop. This is from my Rancilio Silvia combined with a Gaggia MDF grinder, and using freshly roasted beans from a local supplier/roaster.

Uh huh..... That sounds more like a condemnation of the coffee shop than a glowing tribute to Silvia.

People can go on all day about how great their E61 machine works, producing shots with a hint of berries, caramel, chocolate, tobacco, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah...... . Attaining that extra 2 % in quality of shot (based on my experience) is minute in the overall scheme of things.

based on that statement, I think you are on the wrong forum. You have very little experience from what we can gather from your post, and if Silvia is the best machine you have used personally then I think you need to tone down your condescending attitude based on what little knowledge and experience you possess. If you think Silvia makes that great of an espresso that is fine for you, but beyond that you really do not have the knowledge or experience to make the sort of statements that your message carries.

I had 6½ years of experience with Silvia and a good part of that it was PID'd and the brew pressure was checked. That machine NEVER came even remotely close to the flavor and consistency of my Vibiemme Domobar Super. NOT EVEN CLOSE. From the first day, using the VBM with the same grinder I used with the Silvia, the difference was DRAMATIC. Not a little, not a flavor nuance, not sort of better... DRAMATICALLY better.
Espresso! My Espresso!
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com
User avatar
Randy G.
 
Posts: 997
Joined: May 12, 2007
Location: Yankee Hill, CA

Link to "Rancilio Silvia Dilemma - it's a love/hate thing!"by shadowfax on Sat Dec 13, 2008 2:15 pm

Giuseppe21 wrote:People can go on all day about how great their E61 machine works, producing shots with a hint of berries, caramel, chocolate, tobacco, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah...... . Attaining that extra 2 % in quality of shot (based on my experience) is minute in the overall scheme of things. You can get a great shot out of a Silvia and that's all you need to know.

I'll take exception to this. Why did you buy Silvia? You were unhappy with "lower end" machines than Silvia, and upgraded, right? Anyway, your numbers don't make sense to me--I feel like you exaggerate the improvement from Silvia over Gaggia type machines, and downplay the improvement from E61s over Silvia. Imagine if I said, 'The Gaggia espresso machine, once you learn technique on the machine, can consistently pull shots 90% as good as my local café. People can go on and on all day about how great their Silvia works, producing shots with nondescript chocolate, unidentified fruitiness, blah, blah, blah ..... Attaining that extra 8% in quality of shot (based on my experience) is minute in the overall scheme of things.' I certainly agree with you that there are diminishing returns on machines as you spend more and more money, but it seems pretty well-documented that E61s and other machines in the $1000-$2000 range deliver a very significant improvement in the cup.

The fact that "you can get a great shot out of Silvia" is most certainly not the whole story. What's your definition of "good" or "great?" Saying that your Silvia shots are about as good as a local café that pulls shots on a La Marzocco 4 group and a top end grinder is not necessarily helpful to me. Such a setup is somewhat rare, but I can tell you that I've been to more than one shop that pulled coffee that resembled fireplace ash more than espresso, using the setup you described. Heck, a few years ago, most Starbucks cafés had that setup. I don't think that listing a setup is not an adequate shop resumé. My point being, I don't think any of us knows what your local shop (or local beans) are like. And likewise, I wonder if you've ever used an E61 setup? I don't understand why you speak so condescendingly of people who are good at describing the flavors in their coffee, and feel justified in upgrading from Silvia.

Another question: how much trouble do you have to go through to get a great shot of espresso? How consistently great is it?

Just food for thought...
Nicholas Lundgaard
User avatar
shadowfax
 
Posts: 2198
Joined: May 04, 2005
Location: Houston, TX

Link to "Rancilio Silvia Dilemma - it's a love/hate thing!"by d.f. on Sat Dec 13, 2008 3:44 pm

ddr wrote:One thing you might consider is buying a used grinder off of Craig's list. I took a look and see this one: http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/bfs/940437286.html


I looked at it and it looks too tired for the price. I'm going to order a Rocky by Monday unless I find something used.
d.f.
 
Posts: 18
Joined: Dec 12, 2008
Location: Cannon Falls

Link to "Rancilio Silvia Dilemma - it's a love/hate thing!"by HB on Sat Dec 13, 2008 5:06 pm

shadowfax wrote:The fact that "you can get a great shot out of Silvia" is most certainly not the whole story. What's your definition of "good" or "great?"

If the poster's experience is like mine, the definition of "great" changes over time. The thread What does your typical espresso rate? describes my working definition. My typical espresso is a 3.0 to 3.5 (good to good+) with occasional 4.0's (very good).

BTW, the tone of some the posts above is a bit rough. When in doubt, refer to Guidelines for productive discussion. Thanks.

shadowfax wrote:Another question: how much trouble do you have to go through to get a great shot of espresso? How consistently great is it?

That's a good question. I find it very difficult to crack the 4.0 barrier. If I had to pick the largest contributor to improving consistency, it wouldn't be the espresso machine, it'd be the grinder.
Dan Kehn
User avatar
HB
 
Posts: 9899
Joined: Apr 29, 2005
Location: Cary, NC

Link to "Rancilio Silvia Dilemma - it's a love/hate thing!"by BAEvans on Sat Dec 13, 2008 5:45 pm

Don't disagree with the above comments.
As a relative beginner, I certainly hope that with time my palate will improve, and what tastes very good now (I have no basis for 'great') will be revealed to be merely good.
It's all part of the journey.
On the other hand, with my current palate and technical ability, I noted a big step forward in taste and especially consistency from Rocky to Macap MC4, and a dramatic step from my PID'd Silvia to my Alex Duetto.
I enjoy 9 of 10 straight shots now, and the 10th is better than 50% of my Silvia shots. Much more enjoyable trying different coffees and discerning the differences, and getting reasonable results from some difficult coffees like Vivace Dolce.
What fun!

Bruce
BAEvans
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Aug 06, 2008
Location: Minnesota

Link to "Rancilio Silvia Dilemma - it's a love/hate thing!"by shadowfax on Sat Dec 13, 2008 5:54 pm

HB wrote:BTW, the tone of some the posts above is a bit rough. When in doubt, refer to Guidelines for productive discussion. Thanks.
...
That's a good question. I find it very difficult to crack the 4.0 barrier. If I had to pick the largest contributor to improving consistency, it wouldn't be the espresso machine, it'd be the grinder.


[edit]Sorry about the tenor of the original post. I re-worded it and toned it down a bit. I hope it gets my feelings across without being rude now.[/edit]

I agree about grinders. If I had to choose between giving up my Vetrano for a Silvia or my Robur for a Rocky/Mini, I think I would keep the Robur, not the Vetrano. Temp surfing may be annoying, but it's not as annoying as doing everything right and still getting oddball extractions without warning.

d.f. wrote:I looked at it and it looks too tired for the price. I'm going to order a Rocky by Monday unless I find something used.


Good thinking. That grinder is not worth anything like $400. It's the older style SJ (smaller motor), and obviously extremely beat up. The only Mazzer SJs worth $400-500 are the ones that are gently used and recent.
Nicholas Lundgaard
User avatar
shadowfax
 
Posts: 2198
Joined: May 04, 2005
Location: Houston, TX

Link to "Rancilio Silvia Dilemma - it's a love/hate thing!"by Psyd on Sun Dec 14, 2008 12:53 am

shadowfax wrote: Heck, a few years ago, most Starbucks cafés had that setup.


Heck, a few years ago, Starbucks, you cold find a Starbucks that didn't suck!
I've hit the top shops in the country that I could. Murky, Vivace, Victrola, Barefoot, Blue Bottle and a vast plethora of lil shops where a flagship of the Third Wave wasn't available, just to tell my palate what 'good' was. While I'm not pulling the quality of shot that they are but once in, say, a coupla hundred, I can recognise it when I do. I have pro kit at my house, and a Silvia and a pair of Rockys at the GF's house. I take the same coffee to both places, so I have a great way to compare the two. Technique-wise, product-wise, forgiveness-wise, and ease-of-use-wise.
The pro kit is easier and far more forgiving. Silvia isn't called the Stainless Steel Taskmistress fer nuthin'. Techniques I used with Silvia and Rocky were sometimes wastes of precious time on the Majors and the Astoria. Sometimes, techniques I developed with the two-group got me into trouble at Silvia's feet. Occasionally, there'd be something that both machines like.
Silvia needs all of her ducks in a row, a good grind, and for you to hold your mouth just so. She is unforgiving of mistakes, and quick to chastise you fro your laziness, inattention to detail, or just plain ignorance. She is. She just is.
If, however, you're willing to go to school, and suffer under the lash, and hear, again and again, "WRONG! Do it again!" the result will be a remarkably decent cuppa. And occasionally you'll get something that you'd be proud to serve to Nick Cho, or Andy Newbom. Or even Jim Hoffman. Can you do it time after time, day after day, with the ease of an E-61 machine? Probably not. Can anyone other than ten percent of the posters here tell the difference? Probably not.
An analogy is the 240 mph Ferrari. One can espouse the virtues of that machine's speed all they want to, or cornering ability, or acceleration, even, but dollar for dollar, a Ford Fiesta will still kick it's butt in cross-town traffic.
Espresso Sniper
One Shot, One Kill

LMWDP #175
User avatar
Psyd
 
Posts: 1811
Joined: Feb 21, 2006
Location: Tucson, Arizona

Link to "Rancilio Silvia Dilemma - it's a love/hate thing!"by shadowfax on Sun Dec 14, 2008 1:23 am

Psyd wrote:Heck, a few years ago, Starbucks, you cold find a Starbucks that didn't suck!
[...]
Can anyone other than ten percent of the posters here tell the difference? Probably not.
[...]
An analogy is the 240 mph Ferrari. One can espouse the virtues of that machine's speed all they want to, or cornering ability, or acceleration, even, but dollar for dollar, a Ford Fiesta will still kick it's butt in cross-town traffic.


Honestly, I started getting into coffee about the time Starbucks started dumping the LMs and Mazzers (I actually got one of their Mazzer SJs for around $100!), So I've not had the 'pleasure' of experiencing a not-crappy Starbucks. Alas...

10% of the posters here? :shock: Seriously? Wow, you're a cynical man, Chris! :lol:

For your analogy to hold, either Silvia has to be the car with no power steering that won't shift unless you double-clutch, and whose engine overheats after driving for a few minutes, forcing one to stop driving and "temperature surf" the engine or flush the radiator (but at least it has a special valve on the radiator for pressure relief so that you don't get sprayed if you take the cap off while it's hot! ;)).... OR your analogy of "cross-town traffic" must map to "getting caffeinated." Silvia is really not a cheap machine. $600+, in the grand scheme of things, is not that much less than $2000. There's no arguing that Silvia is a luxury item. Most people's jaws would drop if they heard you dropped a nearly a grand on a Silvia + Rocky setup, never mind $2000 for an E61 and a Mazzer Mini.
Nicholas Lundgaard
User avatar
shadowfax
 
Posts: 2198
Joined: May 04, 2005
Location: Houston, TX

Link to "Rancilio Silvia Dilemma - it's a love/hate thing!"by Ken Fox on Sun Dec 14, 2008 2:36 am

I am going to offend almost everyone who has posted on this thread.

I for one find this sort of thread to be extremely annoying. Now why would I say such a thing?

The reason is that it is like I dropped in on a cooking forum whose participants were great chefs and all they could talk about was reheating frozen macaroni and cheese in their microwaves, and which was the best brand of microwave oven for performing this (mundane) task? Nowhere in this discussion have I read word one about coffee or what it is that anyone here wants to get as an end result from all the efforts they put out in this great hobby we call home espresso preparation.

Equipment discussions often descend to this sort of level, but it is important to remember that what we are trying to do is to make high end espresso beverages that taste like the coffee from which they are made.

Cutting to the chase, what is it that I hope to achieve with all the coffee equipment that I have in my house, which spans everything from a commercial sample roaster to a couple of espresso machines and more grinders than I would like to admit that I own? For me, all I really seek is the ability to make straight espressos that taste like the coffee that I went to the trouble to roast and to grind and to extract into espressos. I leave out cappas and other milk drinks because you can hide a lot of sins in milk and quite honestly the bar is lower for the espresso component that goes into them. But I digress.

The real question should be, what is the minimum level of equipment that one can own that will allow one to taste most everything that is in the coffee we use to make our espresso beverages? I will leave out the roasting component although I have previously stated here in other threads that I think that many home roasters overestimate the quality of their home roasts. Let's just assume that you are starting with really good roasted coffee. So what do you need to own in the realm of espresso equipment in order to be able to discern the differences, to appreciate what your coffees have to offer?

Let's dispense with the espresso machine first because it is the easiest. I've never owned a Silvia but I owned several machines just below that level before I went for my first Cimbali Jr., in 1995. You don't need a Cimbali to be at this level but I do think you need something a bit above a Silvia. I rely on my friend Jim Schulman's view that the Silvia muddies the flavors and can't express the best that fine coffees have to offer. With that as a given, I'd reject that machine, in favor of an "inexpensive" heat exchanger, and in this price range you should get an E-61.

As to the grinder, it is more complicated. You can get by with a small planar grinder like a Mazzer Mini or a Cimbali Jr. (or other planar grinders having burrs of at least 56mm in diameter, 64mm are however better). With a grinder like this you will need to accept the reality that every day you will toss shots down the drain and need to readjust them constantly. BUT, you can get good shots out of them if you are patient.

In order to get consistent worry free shots with few shots pitched down the drain, and little need to fiddle daily with grind settings, you need a planar grinder with huge burrs (80+mm diameter), a hybrid Cimbali Max planar/conical, or a commercial conical, the cheapest of which is probably the Compak K10 WBC. With a grinder, the length of the cutting surface (e.g. the "knives") is all important, and these larger grinders simply have a much larger cutting surface and hence are simply "better." This is one of the few things that anyone who has had first hand experience with this stuff will simply take as a given, such as the fact that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west . . . .

I drink 3 or 4 straight double espresso shots every day, in addition to my morning cappa. I do not judge these shots on some sort of imaginary scale of "goodness" versus some fake sort of "ideal" shot. Rather, if the shot is truly bad, which is obvious before one would even try to drink it, then I pitch it down the sink. This happens very rarely these days with my equipment except maybe when I change among hugely different coffees in a given grinder. Otherwise, the question for me is, "can I taste the coffee and can I evaluate it, independent of slight variations in the extraction?" I am not saying that there is not variation in quality among the shots I pull, but rather, given a certain level (which I normally exceed) can I taste the coffee well enough that I can evaluate it, can I make allowances in my mind for the inevitable small variations in shot quality? Normally, the answer is "yes." In that case, I'm totally absorbed in tasting the coffee itself, evaluating how I roasted it, looking for flaws in the roasted beans, etc. The last thought that enters my mind is, "gosh, this was a 3.8 shot and I was expecting a 4.2" The focus, always, is on the coffee and not on "the shot."

In the end this is all about the coffee. It is not about getting "perfect" shots or shots that merit a certain point score out of some mythical total. If you are not thinking about the coffee, which is the whole reason for bothering with this, to taste the special differences among the various coffees out there, then you are simply wasting your time and should go find another hobby where the equipment is the endpoint, rather than what you can accomplish with it. Otherwise, you are reduced to being like the wine drinker who concentrates only on his wine glasses and not on the wine he is drinking out of them.

ken
What, me worry?

Alfred E. Neuman, 1955
Ken Fox
 
Posts: 1650
Joined: Oct 28, 2005
Location: Idaho

Next

Return to Buying Advice