I've been reading these discussions for over a year, and I've greatly benefitted from the knowledgeable input. I've reached decision time on a new machine, and I hope the community will indulge my request for some specific feedback. I'm moving from a la pavoni lever (paired with a baratza vario) because I want more consistency in the cup. I'm the only drinker in the house and steaming milk is unimportant-to put it in perspective, the pavoni is sufficient for my occasional macchiato.

With that in mind, I'm giving strong consideration to the QM Silvano, but I'm also attracted to some of the lower end E-61 units. In fact, I'm considering a gently used ECM Classika II at about the same price as a Silvano. Both have PID and easily adjustable pressure, a combo that I assume will help me get better consistency and allow me to experiment more easily with different beans. The fact that the Silvano would likely come from Chris's is a plus, but I very much prefer the aesthetics of the Classika.


I'd appreciate any thoughts on the comparative merits of these two machines.

Thanks,

Jay

......... get the CLASSIKA PID ; 2.8 liter water tank[ BIGGER ], e61 group ... best in its class , vintage design and proven ... more a pro machine / no thermoblock steam ; more heavy duty SS case, and its retail cost is $300 to $375 more ... so you are getting very good value for your money...

Isn't the Classika a SBDU, not an HX?

Yes--it's a sbdu machine.

Although these units are often criticized, my sense is that they might be right for my needs. I never steam more than a couple of ounces of milk at a time, and I generally drink 2-3 espressos a day. As indicated earlier, I want more consistency that what I've been able to get out of my lever machine. And reasonably quick warm-up time is a big plus.

Hey jay,

Silvano owner here. Gotta admit the aesthetics of the ECM are enviable-truly beautiful. Not to knock the silvano; I still think it was the best decision I made for the price. Advantages I see for ECM is I love the look, PID for both brew and steam (silvano is brew PID only), built in shot timer, and I suppose the hot water potential might be nice rarely (no hot water spout on silvano v2 model). However, I hate single boilers-i didn't realize how much I hated the refilling the boiler routine until I visited a buddy who has a single boiler and I realized how spoiled I've been to brew and steam simultaneously w my silvano. Never have to worry about keeping the boiler full. Plus silvano is an E61 design underneath everything I believe. I Only drink espresso but host often enough to have to make back to back cappas, lattes and macchiatos and never had a prob. The heat up time is quick too and you can turn off the steamer to save electricity when not needed. Btw get a outlet timer and set it for 30min before you wake up and your machine will be ready to go right away-best Home Depot $5 ever spent!

Good luck, you can't go wrong with either

Thanks for the first-hand feedback, mauijer. I suspect the silvano will be more practical. Also, it sounds like it will be easy to maintain and, if needed, to repair with warranty through CCS.

Have you made a decision yet nolazag? I am agonizing over a similar decision, too. I'd love to hear what choice you made and what your reasoning was.

I drink espresso almost exclusively, usually two doubles first thing in the morning. About once a quarter I make a cappuccino or latte for myself, and maybe slightly more frequently I make one for my wife or daughter. For the last two+ years, I have been using a total junker Espressione Minuetto Professional that I eventually paired with a Baratza Vario grinder. I'm definitely going to upgrade the espresso machine, but I'm suffering from paralysis of too many choices. It's so easy to get started down that rabbit hole of "for only a couple hundred dollars more, you could ..." then one day find yourself seriously considering machines like the Profitec Pro 700 or the Quickmill Lucca M58.

I occasionally come to my senses and remind myself "two espressos a day." Then it starts all over, again.

I originally thought I wanted to mod a Silvia, but really liked the looks and factory PID of the Silvano. However, I am partial to the E-61 group design, and my experience with thermoblocks for steaming is underwhelming. I want for my new machine to have great steaming power on that rare occasion I want to steam something. Nothing I've read about the Silvano eases that concern for me. The E-61 group isn't a hard requirement, but as an ex-Navy nuke, that is a sensible, familiar, and comforting design.

When I discovered the Classika II PID, I got even more excited. The Classika checks almost all the boxes for me: E-61 group, insulated stanless steel boiler, PID, and shot timer. Plus, I prefer its looks. But, both of these machines have pretty noisy vibe pumps and neither is plumbable. I know I won't be happy with a noisy machine long term. I'd like to have the *option* to plumb, even though I won't right away. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a SBDU lever E-61 that is plumbable and/or has a rotary pump (or quieter vibe pump) and a shot timer. Some HX machines meet most of those requirements, and again appeal to my nuclear background; but HXs are more expensive, generally don't have a PID, definitely no shot timer, and seem excessive for just two or three espressos a day. Double boilers seem even more excessive. *SIGH*.

bkyoung wrote:It's so easy to get started down that rabbit hole of "for only a couple hundred dollars more, you could ..." then one day find yourself seriously considering machines like the Profitec Pro 700 or the Quickmill Lucca M58.

LMAO...I resemble that remark!
It's a sickness.

No decision yet, Brandon, and the used ECM is sold so there's no rush.

I held off on the ECM for now because I still drink my fair share of macchiatos. On my Pavoni lever, I can pull a decent shot and immediately steam a couple ounces of milk. I didn't like the idea of waiting for the ECM to get hot enough to steam a small amount of milk-seemed like a step backwards from my current set-up.

I too am suffering from info overload and some degree of confusion. Quite frankly, I'm starting to wonder about the value of PID's, especially those that measure boiler rather than group temperature. HX machines that are more expensive than SBDUs often lack PIDs, and knowledgeable posters claim PID's are useless on these HX's because they only measure steaming temperature in the boiler. So, why would a PID that measures boiler temp be more useful on a SBDU machine? Also, HX users do a cooling flush and proceed with confidence that their group is in the correct temperature range. But that seems very similar to what I do with my Pavoni-trust that the group temp is correct and pull the shot. I realize that both SBDUs and HX machines can pull more shots in a row than the Pavoni, but I seldom need more than two doubles at a time.

When I'm convinced that the ECM or the Silvano (or perhaps an HX) will suit my needs and allow me to pull better, more consistent shots than the Pavoni, I'll take the plunge. I'm just not there yet. Good luck with your decision process!

Most of PID's on the machines are for boiler temperature and they work incredibly well. With stable boiler temperature the final brew temperature is then simply at an offset from it due to the cooling of water as it gets delivered to the coffee puck. Even on HX the PID has value since the HX tube sits in the boiler and is heated with the boiler water thus having PID and consistent temperature on the HX tube results in the better consistency of brew temperature on repeated pulls.

But HX is imprecise by nature. You can target perhaps cool, medium and hot temperatures, MAYBE, but that's about it. And repeatability is questionable as well no matter what anyone says... I had my share of HX machines and I would not go back to them... You can certainly get proficient with them no doubt. Perhaps you look into Profitec 500 since its an HX and you would be able to steam and pull shots at the same time...