Hey guys, long time lurker. I'm having a tough time deciding what machine will take over full-time duties for Ms. Silvia... which I PID'd last week. I was hoping that would get rid of the 'upgrade itch', but no such luck.

I'm trying to decide between the Andreja and Expobar III-V. I've only began considering the Expobar III recently after fiddling with my PID'd Silvia. I'd like to not worry about brew temperature.

Having said that I don't like the large size of it and not crazy about it's styling either.

I prefer the Andreja's styling, build quality and smaller foot print. Both are available from Canadian retailers for roughly the same size so pricing is not factored into my decision making.

Keep in mind, if I decide to go with Andreja (which is where I'm leaning) I will pair it with Eric's Adaptor. I probably have to do more research on this adaptor as I'm not quite sure how the shot process will work with it. Do I just do a cooling flush to bring it to 198 F or so then pull the shot? Or is there more to it then that?

I have read the HX vs. Double Boiler article and it was very informative. I was hoping some of you guys could provide me with some of your opinions.

Sorry for all the questions.

I'm surprised to hear you've only gotten one week's worth of fun out of the PID and you're ready to upgrade again. I supposed you're not happy with your shots? Maybe there's still some troubleshooting you can do with your current setup.

- How do you know brew temperature is the source of your frustration? Have you considered upgrading your grinder instead (say, from Rocky to Vario or Super Jolly?)

- What is your coffee?

As an Andreja owner, I can tell you that while Eric's Adapter is an absolutely essential tool, the readings are still confusing. The temperature measured by the thermometer is not the temperature at the puck -- they are 2 different curves with a correlation that varies depending on your pressurestat setting, flush volume, and rebound time. I have learned to accept that a 10 degree declining temperature on the thermometer can actually represent a pretty flat brewing temperature, but even that depends on how you're setup and how you flush / rebound.

The curves seem to have a more predictable correlation on the Vetrano than on the Andreja/Anita, due to a difference in the mechanics of the OPV. (Vetrano recycles OPV water in the HX, while Andreja/Anita discard into the reservoir.) In other words, the lower you adjust your brewing pressure, the more the Andreja/Anita tends to discard hot water, which influences the brew temperature.

Anyway, I'm getting technical here (and Eric may wish to correct my above assertions)... but my point is that temperature management on the Andreja is probably not an improvement over a PID Silvia. Other aspects are of course superior, i.e. on-demand steaming and inherent E61 preinfusion.

Here is some essential reading on E61 + Eric's Thermometer Adapter if you're considering that path:
Need hints on using E61 thermocouple adapter
E61 Thermometer Adapter Techniques for Dummies

Those are both very good machines, so you can't really go wrong either way. I own a Quickmill Anita, which is basically the Andreja without the fancy shell, no burn wand, no compression valves, etc. It's been a great machine and very easy to use.

With Eric's adaptor, I usually just flush to around 204 or 205, wait 20 or 30 seconds, then pull the shot. Since the adaptor reads temps about an inch or so above the showerhead, the temperature at the puck should be around 200 or 201. Seems to work quite well, though having a PID controlled separate brew boiler would probably be more precise.

If you use forgiving blends then doing the HX flush dance is adequate for temp control. If you're into finicky SO espressos, you might want to go for the precision of the dual boiler with PID control. On the other hand, Andreja is probably a better machine for steaming milk if you're into making cappuccinos and lattes. So your decision should be based on your anticipated usage.

Thanks for the responses, and links.

Porta, you may have mis-interpreted my post. I am not having any trouble with Silvia. I ordered the PID during the holidays, but wasn't until after I ordered the PID did I realize I need a machine more capable of hosting larger parties. I still installed the PID on my silvia and was blown away with the results. My shots have never been so good and consistent. This is why the Expobar is getting serious consideration.

But the PID is the only reason I'm looking at the Brewtus. I prefer the Andreja in almost every other category. Which is kinda why I was hoping Eric's thermometer would be a straight forward process, but the more reading I do about it, confuses me even more.

I spoke to a sales guy at Caffetech, and even he had a hard time explaining exactly how to use it. He explained that the temperature was measured just below the shower screen and above the puck, but wasn't able to describe a typical shot walk-thru using the device.

I would recommend the Andrea and also ...the Rocket Giotto premium plus to be added to your list.
I have found [as many have posted ]the E61 machines are far more forgiving than the Silvia ,and for me even with the Pid..The need for more/faster production makes all three good options.I went with the Rocket after much deliberation so I may have a bias
There are some good youtube videos worth checking out ,if you haven't already...kelly

Which is kinda why I was hoping Eric's thermometer would be a straight forward process . . .

One of the reasons it may not be a straightforward process is the methodology used to achieve ESSENTIALLY the same end result. The nice link provided earlier - Need hints on using E61 thermocouple adapter - describes multiple ways of producing espresso via likewise different methods.

I am a big fan of doing extensive flushing on a hx machine to cool the grouphead quite a bit and cool the hx even more. I then let everything come back to particular temperatures and initiate the shot at that time. I devote, perhaps, an inordinate amount of time to prepping the puck but I've got it down to the point that the machine is ready when I am. This method is very well suited to producing multiple, very consistent drinks at about 2.0-2.5 minute intervals. The ftp site below by sig provides some additional info.

The machines which you are considering have been reviewed pretty extensively on this site and I would certainly add the Quickmill Anita to the list.

Thanks for the replies and opinions. Looks like I'm going to stick with my gut and go with the HX.

I have a local dealer that carries Giotto, so I'll pass by one more time to have a look at it and see exactly what they can do for me if I pair it up with a Vario. With that said, I'll still probably go with the Andreja.

Now I just gotta sell my Rocky/Silvia.

FWIW, here's my 2¢; no doubt it's worth far less, and you can keep the change . . . I'd get the Andreja and the Vario.

Mark, I'm glad to hear that you've experienced an improvement in your shots using the PID.

I'm not sure the Andreja is a good choice for big parties. Pulling shots with Eric's thermometer is basically "informed surfing" - you may have a good idea what's going on, but you have to pull shots at Andreja's rhythm. Andreja has a smaller steam boiler than some other HX machines, and as such I don't believe it's a good candidate for the "flush and go" method. Here are the 2 methods that give me the best temperature stability on the Andreja:

1. Flush and rebound.
2. Initial flush and then pull shots every N seconds with no flushing in-between. (Length of N dependent on pressurestat, shot volumes, OPV, etc).

While the above methods work quite well, the problem is that they require, at least for me, attention. I find that I like to talk at parties, multitask, get distracted, etc. If I had a machine that gave me good temperature stability while allowing me to be less attentive (i.e. not be so sensitive to timing), I would be happier at gatherings, not to mention more confident in the consistency of what I'm serving.

zin1953 wrote:FWIW, here's my 2¢; no doubt it's worth far less, and you can keep the change . . . I'd get the Andreja and the Vario.

+1, and get Eric's thermometer. It is simple to install and makes hitting the desired brew temp a breeze. In fact, it's much much harder to describe than it is to perform.

Best of luck with your future purchase.

I own an Andreja and an Elektra D1. My experience with both machines leads me to second Portamento on some of the points he makes and add my own.

The Andreja is not such a great machine if you intend to use it for hosting larger parties. You must expect a 2 minute delay between shots in order to achieve optimal temperature. Depending on how many people you plan to entertain, you might end up spending a lot of time in the kitchen. I do not have this problem with the Elektra but the Elektra is overkill when I am alone. I end up using the Andreja during the week and fire up the Elektra on the weekend.

Temperature surfing and cleaning flush require a lot of water which entails frequent refilling of the reservoir. I have a direct connect kit for the Andreja and it makes using the machine more fun. I suggest you get one if you decide to purchase the Andreja. This is especially the case if you plan to host larger groups. On a related note: the lack of direct connect drain on the Andreja can be frustrating. The Elektra is an HX, which means flushing and all, but the direct connect drain makes this less of a hassle; I really learned to appreciate this feature!

I use Eric's thermocouple adapter. I find it very useful. A trial and error approach allows me to correlate best results in the cup with the temperature 2 inches from the puck. This makes replication possible. There is obviously a difference in temperature stability between the Andreja and the Elektra, but that is to be expected.

The E61 group is really forgiving. I really had to improve my dosing-distribution-tamping technique when I started using the Elektra. The Andreja produces a very good cup of espresso. I would be hard-pressed to describe the difference between the Andreja's output and the Elektra's, but there is a difference.

I do not think you can go wrong with the Andreja if you accept its inherent limitations. It is well built, pretty and just the right size for an average kitchen. That last bit is certainly not true of the Elektra D1, but what do you want

Wow, thanks for all the responses and feedback.

I suppose the Quickmill Anita would have the same internals as the Andrea and present me with the same sort of problems with respect to temperature rebound?

Are there any other machines at this price-point which you would recommend?

Yes, Anita is basically the same as Andreja, aside from the steam and hot water wands, steam valves, direct connect feature, and different shells. I've been very happy with Anita, though in hindsight it would probably have been worth the extra couple of hundred bucks to have the improved steam wand and valves. The stock steam wand on Anita is pretty weak, and the stock compression style valves tend to leak after a while.

That said, I think the Vetrano is actually a better choice than the Andreja, because it costs almost the same and includes a rotary pump and direct connect. These are very nice to have. One thing that bugs me about Anita is how noisy she is, especially when the autofill kicks in. A rotary pump would be much quieter. Not having to refill the water tank every other day would also be nice.

As for problems with temperature rebound, I think this is not that big an issue unless you plan to use your machine to serve large groups on a regular basis. Yes, Anita/Andreja takes longer to rebound than many "dragon" HX machines, but I've never had any problem serving lots of milk drinks at parties. For the most part, people aren't going to notice if the shot is a bit too cool, especially if they're drinking it in a latte or cappuccino. And when you're just pulling shots on your own, you can afford to wait a couple of minutes between shots.

Mark, can you plumb the machine in? That will open up your options to some superior machines.

The Quickmill Vetrano is currently available for $100 less than the Andreja Premium (using the discount code @ ChrisCoffee). It's similar to the Andreja but better in a number of ways:

- Not having to refill the water reservoir while serving guests
- Not having to empty the drip tray while serving guests
- Nice quiet rotary pump, so as not to disturb the party (The Andreja vibe pump is quite loud)
- Similar temperature management to the Andreja, but slightly better correlation to the grouphead thermometer, plus the ability to hear the cooling flush due to the quiet pump
- Note that you do not retain the option to utilize the Vetrano with a water reservoir.

But ultimately, the least compromises are made with the dual boiler, rotary pump machines like the Expobar Brewtus III-R, Alex Duetto II, Vivaldi II, etc. (I'll defer to members who own these machines to elaborate).

I would think another option would be high-powered HX machines that are known for their ability to "flush and go" and handle a fast pace of back-to-back drinks. Again, I'll let other recommend specifics here, but off the top of my head, Fiorenzato Bricoletta, Rancilio, Cimbali, Elektra seem to play at this level.

Thanks Eli & Ryan.

Eventually, yes, I will direct connect the machine. But that won't be for another year or so because my next home is currently being built. Right now the home I have doesn't allow for a direct connection as the machine is situated in a spot that's unaccessible to a water line. If I wasn't in this situation then I'd definitely pick up the Vetrano. However, shopping at CoffeeChris isn't an option for me as I live in Canada and I'd be charged a ton of duties, tax and brokerage fees. The Quickmill retailer up here has the Vetrano for alittle more then Andreja.

I don't host ALL that often, but Eli's right. My guests certainly wouldn't notice if the shots alittle cool. In fact I know they wouldn't... I've tried theirs!

90% of the time I'm just making myself a shot at lunch, and one at dinner. Occaissionally I'll be making a Cap for the wife. Party hosting is usually limited to once a month or so.

Why not get a Vetrano and run it off the bottle? In case you don't know what I'm talking about, you can run a Flo-jet sitting on top of a 5-gallon purified water bottle to supply te Vetrano with the needed direct line. This is an excellent option if you plan on plumbing in at a later date.

The upgraded rebuildable valves and no-burn wands are very nice and are, IMO, well worth the added cost.

As a side note, rebound times are heavily based on the pressurestat setting (temp inside the boiler). An example of this is Expobar's Lever (HX machine), which has a fast rebound because it runs so dang hot, requiring a LONG flush to get it down to brew temp if the pressurestat is left at the factory setting. I can accomplish this same rebound on my Vetrano if I wanted by simply turning up the pressurestat to turn it into a fire-breathing dragon, but I choose not to as I'm happy with it running at .9 - 1.15 bar - shorter flush, rebound matches my portafilter prep routine, and I have all the steam power I need.

I have mentioned this before, but I find that having a machine plumbed out either to a drain or a 5 gallon jug to be much more useful than plumbed in ever was.

I myself found that carrying a mostly full tray of just below boiling water across the kitchen to be either uncomfortable or messy, and with my skills a bit of both. I would carry a pitcher of cold water to a funnel any day.

That said a kart setup is ideal for me in an apartment where I could not add a water line easily. You do add about $200.00 to the total cost to add a flojet pump and a pressure tank, but you just pop a new 5 gallon bottle of inlet water under the counter once a week and you are set. The outflow bottle will last me about two weeks, and no, it does not produce any smell, but I do place about a 1/8 cup of bleach in the bottom of the drain bottle when it is empty when I change it.

Just my way.

-Cecil

I ran my Vetrano off of a bottle without a Flojet for over a year without any problem. Therefore, if you feel that you will direct connect in the near future, the Vetrano would be an excellent choice.

Well, I finally sold my Silvia. I'm officially 'espresso-less'. My Vario is looking for a dance partner.

It's time to pull the trigger on a purchase but I can't get this damn Expobar out of my head!

I would definitely recommend the Expobar III but the rotary version.. rotary is a huge upgrade from the crappy vibe pump.

First off you have the option of plumbing in - which is great because stagnant water in that plastic tank isn't going to improve taste!

With the dual boiler you can set the temp on the PID and forget about it... only a flush to heat up the grouphead and then you can make your espresso...

Flushing the HX is tricky at first (much easier with erics type adapter I must say) but the expobar is a no brainer