Hey guys, long time lurker. I'm having a tough time deciding what machine will take over full-time duties for Ms. Silvia... which I PID'd last week. I was hoping that would get rid of the 'upgrade itch', but no such luck.

I'm trying to decide between the Andreja and Expobar III-V. I've only began considering the Expobar III recently after fiddling with my PID'd Silvia. I'd like to not worry about brew temperature.

Having said that I don't like the large size of it and not crazy about it's styling either.

I prefer the Andreja's styling, build quality and smaller foot print. Both are available from Canadian retailers for roughly the same size so pricing is not factored into my decision making.

Keep in mind, if I decide to go with Andreja (which is where I'm leaning) I will pair it with Eric's Adaptor. I probably have to do more research on this adaptor as I'm not quite sure how the shot process will work with it. Do I just do a cooling flush to bring it to 198 F or so then pull the shot? Or is there more to it then that?

I have read the HX vs. Double Boiler article and it was very informative. I was hoping some of you guys could provide me with some of your opinions.

Sorry for all the questions.

I'm surprised to hear you've only gotten one week's worth of fun out of the PID and you're ready to upgrade again. I supposed you're not happy with your shots? Maybe there's still some troubleshooting you can do with your current setup.

- How do you know brew temperature is the source of your frustration? Have you considered upgrading your grinder instead (say, from Rocky to Vario or Super Jolly?)

- What is your coffee?

As an Andreja owner, I can tell you that while Eric's Adapter is an absolutely essential tool, the readings are still confusing. The temperature measured by the thermometer is not the temperature at the puck -- they are 2 different curves with a correlation that varies depending on your pressurestat setting, flush volume, and rebound time. I have learned to accept that a 10 degree declining temperature on the thermometer can actually represent a pretty flat brewing temperature, but even that depends on how you're setup and how you flush / rebound.

The curves seem to have a more predictable correlation on the Vetrano than on the Andreja/Anita, due to a difference in the mechanics of the OPV. (Vetrano recycles OPV water in the HX, while Andreja/Anita discard into the reservoir.) In other words, the lower you adjust your brewing pressure, the more the Andreja/Anita tends to discard hot water, which influences the brew temperature.

Anyway, I'm getting technical here (and Eric may wish to correct my above assertions)... but my point is that temperature management on the Andreja is probably not an improvement over a PID Silvia. Other aspects are of course superior, i.e. on-demand steaming and inherent E61 preinfusion.

Here is some essential reading on E61 + Eric's Thermometer Adapter if you're considering that path:
Need hints on using E61 thermocouple adapter
E61 Thermometer Adapter Techniques for Dummies

Those are both very good machines, so you can't really go wrong either way. I own a Quickmill Anita, which is basically the Andreja without the fancy shell, no burn wand, no compression valves, etc. It's been a great machine and very easy to use.

With Eric's adaptor, I usually just flush to around 204 or 205, wait 20 or 30 seconds, then pull the shot. Since the adaptor reads temps about an inch or so above the showerhead, the temperature at the puck should be around 200 or 201. Seems to work quite well, though having a PID controlled separate brew boiler would probably be more precise.

If you use forgiving blends then doing the HX flush dance is adequate for temp control. If you're into finicky SO espressos, you might want to go for the precision of the dual boiler with PID control. On the other hand, Andreja is probably a better machine for steaming milk if you're into making cappuccinos and lattes. So your decision should be based on your anticipated usage.

Thanks for the responses, and links.

Porta, you may have mis-interpreted my post. I am not having any trouble with Silvia. I ordered the PID during the holidays, but wasn't until after I ordered the PID did I realize I need a machine more capable of hosting larger parties. I still installed the PID on my silvia and was blown away with the results. My shots have never been so good and consistent. This is why the Expobar is getting serious consideration.

But the PID is the only reason I'm looking at the Brewtus. I prefer the Andreja in almost every other category. Which is kinda why I was hoping Eric's thermometer would be a straight forward process, but the more reading I do about it, confuses me even more.

I spoke to a sales guy at Caffetech, and even he had a hard time explaining exactly how to use it. He explained that the temperature was measured just below the shower screen and above the puck, but wasn't able to describe a typical shot walk-thru using the device.

I would recommend the Andrea and also ...the Rocket Giotto premium plus to be added to your list.
I have found [as many have posted ]the E61 machines are far more forgiving than the Silvia ,and for me even with the Pid..The need for more/faster production makes all three good options.I went with the Rocket after much deliberation so I may have a bias
There are some good youtube videos worth checking out ,if you haven't already...kelly

Which is kinda why I was hoping Eric's thermometer would be a straight forward process . . .

One of the reasons it may not be a straightforward process is the methodology used to achieve ESSENTIALLY the same end result. The nice link provided earlier - Need hints on using E61 thermocouple adapter - describes multiple ways of producing espresso via likewise different methods.

I am a big fan of doing extensive flushing on a hx machine to cool the grouphead quite a bit and cool the hx even more. I then let everything come back to particular temperatures and initiate the shot at that time. I devote, perhaps, an inordinate amount of time to prepping the puck but I've got it down to the point that the machine is ready when I am. This method is very well suited to producing multiple, very consistent drinks at about 2.0-2.5 minute intervals. The ftp site below by sig provides some additional info.

The machines which you are considering have been reviewed pretty extensively on this site and I would certainly add the Quickmill Anita to the list.

Thanks for the replies and opinions. Looks like I'm going to stick with my gut and go with the HX.

I have a local dealer that carries Giotto, so I'll pass by one more time to have a look at it and see exactly what they can do for me if I pair it up with a Vario. With that said, I'll still probably go with the Andreja.

Now I just gotta sell my Rocky/Silvia.

FWIW, here's my 2¢; no doubt it's worth far less, and you can keep the change . . . I'd get the Andreja and the Vario.

Mark, I'm glad to hear that you've experienced an improvement in your shots using the PID.

I'm not sure the Andreja is a good choice for big parties. Pulling shots with Eric's thermometer is basically "informed surfing" - you may have a good idea what's going on, but you have to pull shots at Andreja's rhythm. Andreja has a smaller steam boiler than some other HX machines, and as such I don't believe it's a good candidate for the "flush and go" method. Here are the 2 methods that give me the best temperature stability on the Andreja:

1. Flush and rebound.
2. Initial flush and then pull shots every N seconds with no flushing in-between. (Length of N dependent on pressurestat, shot volumes, OPV, etc).

While the above methods work quite well, the problem is that they require, at least for me, attention. I find that I like to talk at parties, multitask, get distracted, etc. If I had a machine that gave me good temperature stability while allowing me to be less attentive (i.e. not be so sensitive to timing), I would be happier at gatherings, not to mention more confident in the consistency of what I'm serving.

zin1953 wrote:FWIW, here's my 2¢; no doubt it's worth far less, and you can keep the change . . . I'd get the Andreja and the Vario.

+1, and get Eric's thermometer. It is simple to install and makes hitting the desired brew temp a breeze. In fact, it's much much harder to describe than it is to perform.

Best of luck with your future purchase.