Hi Everyone,

I've been a long time listener, first time poster. I've decided to finally take the plunge after parting ways with a Gaggia Carreza I bought used to see if I would enjoy the whole espresso coffee culture and i've been bit. I've be scouring the site trying to figure out where a good place to start would be and have narrowed it down to two albeit very different machines: the Andreja Premium and PV Lusso

Andreja Premium

Pros:
E-61 Brew Head
Convenient Features
easily serviced by most experienced shops (i move around a lot)
Aesthetics

Cons:
Higher Cost

PV Lusso

Pros:
Much lower cost
Mostly mechanical with litltle to go wrong
DIY serviceable
Could be fun to experiment with
I'll say it - just plain "cool" factor

Cons:
odd size portafilter
lack of features (no water cut-off switch)

Hoping to look for some guidance as a newbie as to what I can expect from either of these machines and if there are any recommendations and considerations I haven't taken into account.

Thanks,
Libby

Hi Libby, the best start is to let us know how you will use the machine (how many drinks per day, will you entertain), and what type of drinks you prefer (striaght espresso, milk based, etc).

Both will make great espresso. Both can be easily end-user serviced. Both are machines with a good track record.

More of the difference is, "Do you like lever or pump machines and the subtly different style of espresso each produces?"

Someone will ask this, so let me float it out there early, "Have you made the more important decision about a grinder yet?"

Edit -- I see you're in Rochester. You might want to consider a trip over to Chris' Coffee in Albany to put your hands on some machines and grinders.

Thanks for the responses everyone.

In terms of my coffee habits, i'd say realistically i'm about 70/30 cappuccinos and straight shots 2-3 drinks per day. I do enjoy entertaining but don't normally have parties larger than 6-8, but figure the Andreja or the 2 group PV should be able to handle that sort of volume.

In terms of grinder, I'm pretty much decided on a Vario. The other possibility that has come up is the rocket+mazzer mini combo that SCG has running. The Compak K3 was on the short list as well, but i wanted something versatile since I also have a french press and aeropress.

I've been dealing with Chris Coffee who have been incredibly helpful. Unfortunately, making a trip out to Albany just doesn't fit with my schedule very well as a grad school student (which is also why i'm pining for a machine sooner rather than later), so getting my hands on some of the machines might not be in the cards.

The PV sounds like it is fairly forgiving when pulling shots and consistent in shot quality. The reason I was considering it is based on all the comments about the grinder making more of a difference than the machine and the huge offset in cost. Also, given the lower cost and simpler construction, it seemed more likely that I would get under the hood of it and feel less apprehensive about tinkering.

Looking forward to your additional comments - I find most of the advice on these forums incredibly helpful!

Jeff wrote:More of the difference is, "Do you like lever or pump machines and the subtly different style of espresso each produces?"

I think the issue most people have who ask this question is that they don't know. It's not exactly easy to go out and try a lever somewhere. For people buying their first machine it is still hard to determine off a simple test which one they might like better, because they don't have a reference anyway.

My advice to Libby is to go for the lever if it interests you (as it appears to). There's no better way to find out what works for you than jumping right in. Everyone had to do it at some point. The only reason I'd take the Andreja instead is if you plan on serving groups often. The Lusso does have to cool down before you can refill the boiler, but in typical home use I don't think that's much of an issue. It fits the budget and makes great espresso, what more could you want? One last note, they are both great machines so whichever you choose there's no way to go wrong.

I think shot volume is probably another factor when buying a lever. If I am not mistaken, a typical Lusso pull probably yields around 1 oz. Maybe felini pull could overcome this? But if you like bigger volume latte/cappuccino without losing the taste, you probably need to take that into consideration.

Personally, I also came from Gaggia Carezza and preferred the taste of a lever shot myself. (Peppina and Cremina) The shots are sweeter and more layered as compared to the Gaggia's. In my opinion, Peppina made a way better shot than Cremina but the volume is a tad small for my purpose(Latte) and can't steam milk, which was why I had to give her up.

I think shot volume is probably another factor when buying a lever. If I am not mistaken, a typical Lusso pull probably yields around 1 oz.

+1, the lusso is probably not a machine to make larger lattes/cappas, but here is a write up.

My only other concern is there were a few people posting about a year ago with the brain dying in the lusso, and they had to bypass it to make the machine work. Also other annoyances like portafilters holes not being drilled through completely, etc. They may have fixed these issues since I haven't heard anything in a while.

Libby, if you haven't made a decision yet, I've got hands-on experience with both of these very-different machines.

My first "serious" machine was an Andreja, and I loved it - mostly. Great espresso, and VERY capable steamer. I once commented that it's powerful enough to steam an entire cow.

But... I ultimately got rid of it because that type of HX machine is a bit tricky to descale (isolating HX from main water feed, descaling boiler separately, etc., was just more of a pain than I wanted to mess with). The Lusso, which I currently own, is a piece of cake to maintain. Also, I just didn't like how loud the Andreja's vibratory pump was. It created enough racket that I was always concerned about waking my wife on a weekend morning as she really wanted to sleep in a bit.

Finally, the Andreja should really be turned on a good 45 minutes before you want to use it. The Lusso can be ready to go in 15 minutes (though it's better after 20+ minutes). You can put the Andreja on a timer, but if you're a light-ish sleeper, and live in a small place, the noise of the boiler auto-filling when it first turns on may wake you up... It used to with me.

Now, the Lusso ain't perfect either. The 45mm is a bit odd (doesn't hold as much coffee, is a bit tougher to get ground coffee into - when compared to a commercial-size 58mm basket, and some grinder's portafilter holder won't accommodate the smaller PF & basket... no big deal there, I don't believe). Also, it doesn't have a vacuum-breaker, which means that once it appears to be at temperature, you need to bleed off false-pressure through the steam valve (easy to do, but it means the machine will need a bit more time to reach proper temperature after falsely thinking it was there).

The Lusso (and most other levers) also doesn't have a three-way solenoid valve, meaning that you can't remove the PF immediately after pulling a shot (like you can with a machine like the Andreja). No big deal if you get the dual-group Lusso... you just move over to the other group while the other takes about a minute to naturally depressurize (at which point you can remove that PF without getting pressurized coffee "sneeze").

A plus for the Lusso is that I would say it's easier to use and dial in than the Andreja. And, it is one heck of a steamer (though I can't steam a cow). I get velvety-smooth micro-foamed milk that makes for delicious cappuccinos. And to get sufficient coffee-volume for a capp, I just do two full lever-pumps. Some have even said a third is okay when making a milk-based drink. Haven't had the need for that. OK, one consideration for my cappuccinos: I make a traditional 4-5 ounce version. No big-gulp 8-10 ouncers for me.

Finally, a big question is what type of person you are. The Lusso is more of a zen-like experience. Minimal noise (only noise comes from purging some water to clean the brew-group, and when you steam milk). It's far more of a tranquil experience to use.

Thanks for the advice everyone. I decided to take the plunge with the Andreja. One of the challenges that I face is very frequent moves due to my job, of which some locations can be remote, and as much as the PV was very appealing, the things that it had going for it were more easily accessible after market accessories (bottomless PF, VST baskets, etc) and the fact that the parts for most e-61 machines are readily available. Chris Coffee was also an incredible help and seemed to be the most responsive of the vendors I had contacted and again, being a newbie, i wanted to feel well supported.

I figured the pump and being able to put it on the timer would be a bit easier as a busy grad student in the meantime and as my first foray into my first serious machine. It's taken me over a bag of beans to dial in the grind and i'm still not perfectly happy with my pulls, but it's a good start.

I'm sure if I start mastering the Andreja, I'll be tempted to look at levers down the road, but in the meantime I know that the Andreja should be perfectly capable of producing some delicious shots, and anything but are my own shortcomings as a barista.

Libby

Congratulations Libby! In spite of my progression from an Andreja to a Lusso, I still have loads of respect for the Andreja. Incredibly capable, and if you have a group over to visit they'll be wowed by the machine's looks... You'll become quite popular once they taste what it's capable of.

You're right about Chris. I bought my Andreja from him, and the entire team were great to work with throughout my time with it.

You also have a great group of folks here very experienced with that machine who are always willing to help you through your learning curve.

One piece of advice I'd give is to be patient with the stock steam tip. I tried two others, but ended back up with stock. It is powerful and fast, easy to clean, and once mastered, yields amazing results.

Enjoy!