wsfarrell wrote:I could be way off here, but I believe "simultaneously" means "alternating in rapid succession." So the brew boiler is pulsed for 5 seconds, then the steam boiler is pulsed for 5 seconds, then the brew boiler is pulsed for 5 seconds, etc.

This is somewhat corroborated by the PID displays, which rise in temperature together. (As opposed to, say, the brew boiler going to 200 and then the steam boiler going to 262.)

Bill,

Simultaneously means both boilers would be at full tilt at the same time. This would get the machine up to temp much faster and would recover much faster. For example, on my GS/3 you can run it in half or full mode. In full mode (both boilers on at the same time) the machine heats up from ~70 degrees a 1.5 liter brew boiler AND the 3.5 liter steam boiler in under 18 minutes using heating elements that are smaller (lower wattage; 500 brew, 1200 steam) than your Profitec. Though I've never tested it in half mode, I've seen reports of it taking nearly 40 minutes.

What you are describing is what some double boilers do if they CANNOT run both at the same time. Also, from what you describe, it doesn't appear the brew boiler has precedence, which I'd much prefer, especially on an E61. The sooner you can get the brew boiler up to temp the sooner it can get busy warming up that huge chunk of brass that is the grouphead. Delaying this by cycling power between boilers is just prolonging the warm up and the time needed for the machine to stabilize. This isn't a big deal until you decide you want a drink and your machine is off ... makes for a LONG wait.

brianl wrote:I think the issue at topic here is the ability to brew and steam at the same time using full power (instead of them heating at the same time). With my Vetrano 2B on 15a, If i try to do both my steam power will be inhibited when the brew boiler needs the power. However, in 20a mode I am led to believe that they would both be able to work at the same time using full power. I don't have a 20 amp outlet to verify though.

Yep, you are correct. In 15 amp mode, while your brew boiler is drawing power your steam boiler is sitting idle waiting for available power to kick on the heating element to stop the dropping of pressure as you are steaming. Go too low and you'll have little power and very wet steam ... and a long wait for the steam boiler to get back up to pressure. In 20 amp mode the heating element would kick on right away, doing its best to hold the steam temp (and thus pressure) as consistent as possible given the flow rate of the steam tip (too fast of a tip and it'll drop regardless). Also, in 20 amp mode, boiler fills would be dealt with right away with the heating element kicking on versus having to wait for power to engage, thus returning your machine's steam boiler to its set point.

This capability of having both boilers on at the same time really comes into play when making drinks in succession. The GS/3 can handle making a few without trouble while only drawing about 10 amps of power (half mode) solely because of the reserve of the boilers. 3.5 liters of steam is A LOT. If I had a group of people over and needed to make 5 cappuccinos in 5 minutes I'd switch it over to full power and knock them out with ease. Recovery from steaming 12 ounces in full mode is a few seconds - like ~10.

On my Breville, all three heating elements only add up to 1500 watts (100 on grouphead, 400 brew boiler, 1000 steam boiler, IIRC). Total draw from a cold start shows 1540 watts on my Kill-A-Watt. Once up to temp it sips power. Also, recovery from steaming regardless if steaming for 30 seconds or a minute is well under 10 seconds; about 7 or so IIRC.

uscfroadie wrote:This capability of having both boilers on at the same time really comes into play when making drinks in succession. The GS/3 can handle making a few without trouble while only drawing about 10 amps of power (half mode) solely because of the reserve of the boilers. 3.5 liters of steam is A LOT. If I had a group of people over and needed to make 5 cappuccinos in 5 minutes I'd switch it over to full power and knock them out with ease. Recovery from steaming 12 ounces in full mode is a few seconds - like ~10.

So from my understanding, in 15 amp mode, one the Profitec has both boilers at temperature, steaming and brewing at the same time is doable since the boilers are so large. However, with successive drinks (with simultaneous steaming and brewing) being done very quickly, you will run into an issue where you'd need both boilers on at the same time to keep up, thus a 20 amp mode/machine. Is this understanding correct?

For my uses (home), I don't think I'd run into issues with the Profitec being a 15 amp machine. I'm curious if there is any real world difference in how long it takes the machine to get both boilers up to temperature in each respective mode (7 or 5). Since the Profitec is a 15 amp machine, it can't be pulling full wattage of both boilers simultaneously... so the ping-pong that Bill describes or perhaps the half-power that Merle describes is likely at play. I do definitely see the advantage of allowing the brew boiler to reach temperature first.

Joe,

My apologies for posting the wrong information. Yes, you are correct. I was a bit fried when typing this up and I ended up bit overzealous in my effort to share.

"Changing the F.02 setting to 5 allows both boilers to be heated simultaneously, <snip>"

That is what I was referring to. That is the mode I am currently running.

John

Someone should ask the distributor or manufacturer whether "heated simultaneously" means both elements are energized at the same time (as a typical 20 A mode), or simply that the brew boiler isn't given full priority while the machine initially heats. 2600 W at 110 V is over 2800 W at a more typical 115 W, or almost 25 A.

Chris,

You might have missed an earlier response from Joe who called WLL and talked to Mark Jackson.

Fluffeepuff wrote:I just confirmed with Mark Jackson at WLL that the machine is in fact ONLY 15A (and only has a 15A plug).

No way is it energizing 2600 watts of heating elements on 15 amps on a 110 circuit. Not even Enron's creative accounting could make those numbers work.

Perhaps John can make a video with a Kill-A-Watt monitoring the draw. Shoot, if he doesn't have one, I can mail mine out to him if he promises to return it. It would be nice to see how the machine's power draw behaves during a pull of 3 ounces from the group and 3 ounces from the hot water tap. That would surely kick on both heating elements ... how it reacts in this "Changing the F.02 setting to 5 allows both boilers to be heated simultaneously" would give us a very clear answer.

smite wrote:Joe,

My apologies for posting the wrong information. Yes, you are correct. I was a bit fried when typing this up and I ended up bit overzealous in my effort to share.

"Changing the F.02 setting to 5 allows both boilers to be heated simultaneously, <snip>"

That is what I was referring to. That is the mode I am currently running.

John

John, no worries! Have you noticed a difference in the amount of time it takes both boilers to reach temperature in F.02 setting '5' vs '7'??

uscfroadie wrote:Perhaps John can make a video with a Kill-A-Watt monitoring the draw. Shoot, if he doesn't have one, I can mail mine out to him if he promises to return it. It would be nice to see how the machine's power draw behaves during a pull of 3 ounces from the group and 3 ounces from the hot water tap. That would surely kick on both heating elements ... how it reacts in this "Changing the F.02 setting to 5 allows both boilers to be heated simultaneously" would give us a very clear answer.

Merle, I send Profitec an inquiry regarding this topic and the F.02 setting. It would definitely be interesting to take a look at the power draws for both boilers in the different settings. I wonder why they chose not to offer a machine that was capable of both 15A and 20A modes - my guess is, as you calculated earlier, for 2600W of draw the current on a 110V & 120V circuit would be over 21A and thus not offer a functional advantage.

I'll follow up with the response I get from Profitec!

To be honest I did not measure specific differences but I do recall that the machine appeared to be more responsive in the "..allows both boilers to be heated simultaneously." My schedule this weekend is a bit crazy but if I can I will try at both settings this weekend and post back with some results.

Merle, I do not have a Kill-A-Watt meter but can ask around to see if one of my neighbors have one and I would be glad to take video of the machine in both settings.

John

smite wrote:To be honest I did not measure specific differences but I do recall that the machine appeared to be more responsive in the "..allows both boilers to be heated simultaneously." My schedule this weekend is a bit crazy but if I can I will try at both settings this weekend and post back with some results.

John,

That's definitely interesting - no worries if you don't have time this weekend I also shot an e-mail to WLL to see if they know (or can figure out) the differences in settings. Still no word from Profitec, will follow up if I get any feedback.

Maybe Dan Kehn will do some comparisons for us???

Joe Fish

Ok no luck finding a meter but I did some testing in both settings and measured recovery times.

I did two different test runs at each setting. The times below are listed in the order of the runs.

Here are the settings and parameters used on both runs at each setting F.02 and F.05:

Brew Boiler 201
Steam boiler 258

3 oz pull from the brew boilers
8 oz pull from the steam boilers (yes I know this is a lot but felt this was a better test)

I ran each scenario 2 times with the machine ready having been on for 1+ hour and doing a short initial flush from the group head of 2 oz and waiting 5 minutes before starting the test.

I had a measuring cup under the group head and the water spigot and raised the lever first and open the water to the spigot and then immediately lowered the lever to the group at 3 oz which was pretty fast and then shut off the water at 8 oz. I did this two times in each setting.

Here are the time results for F.02:

Brew boiler was back up to 201 in 5 and 6 seconds.
Steam boiler was back up to 258 and full pressure in 1 minute 19 seconds and 1 minute 15 seconds.

Here are the time results for F.05

Brew boiler was back up 201 in 7 and 8 seconds
Steam boiler was back up to 258 and full pressure in 1 minute 2 seconds and 1 minute 4 seconds.

Not exactly scientific but at least gives us a sense of timing for each mode.

I waited 15 minutes between changing the settings and fully shut down the machine and verified the PID setting configuration.

Hopefully this is helpful.

John

smite wrote:Here are the time results for F.02:

Brew boiler was back up to 201 in 5 and 6 seconds.
Steam boiler was back up to 258 and full pressure in 1 minute 19 seconds and 1 minute 15 seconds.

Here are the time results for F.05

Brew boiler was back up 201 in 7 and 8 seconds
Steam boiler was back up to 258 and full pressure in 1 minute 2 seconds and 1 minute 4 seconds.

John, just to make sure we're on the same page with nomenclature, the F.02 is the '7' recommended setting where the brew boiler and then steam boiler is heated, and the "F.05" is the F.02 in the '5' setting, where both are heated "simultaneously"? I'm not sure how the PID is going to display the settings since all I have for reference is the Profitec 700 Service Settings Dan posted in his review.

If I'm understanding your results correctly, that is in fact very interesting - it would appear that, as expected, with the recommended mode the brew boiler is given priority over the steam boiler to reach temperature. In the other mode, if both boilers were being heated simultaneously (by either ping pong, half power, etc.), then I would imagine the brew boiler time lengthening and the steam boiler time shortening.

Thank you VERY much for doing this quick test John! I actually am quite surprised with the steam boiler heating time differences, but for my uses it would make no difference in operation. If you want something else to test... you can see how long it takes the machine to heat up both boilers to temperature from a cold start in the two different settings

I'm hoping to hear back from either WLL or Profitec this week to get some more insight into this function.

Joe Fish