Hello,

First of all I would like to thank everyone at Home-Barista.com. The Reviews, How-Tos, Forum posts, etc. have been extremely valuable to me during my research for a new semi-auto espresso machine and have been a great resource for learning about all things coffee. It has been a great journey so far with so much more to go. What a great arena this is with many passionate, talented, informed and experienced people willing to share. I can't thank you all enough.

Secondly, please excuse my long post. I want to be thorough.

After reaching analysis paralysis I have finally decided to buy a Quick Mill Vetrano. After all my research I picked two winners to choose from: the Quick Mill Vetrano or the La Spaziale Vivaldi II. This short list was developed after research/consideration of everything from the venerable Rancilio Silvia to all the E-61 group based machines to single group commercial machines whether lever activated or auto dosing, single boiler, HX and double boiler, PID or non-PID and where/who to buy them from.

So, my questions to you all are:
1) What did I miss in my analysis / thought process for these two machines
2) Have I made any significant errors in deciding on the Quick Mill Vetrano

My current equipment includes a La Pavoni PG-16 Romantica and a Starbucks/Saeco Barista. I have developed sufficient skills to produce decent espresso consistently on the Starbucks/Saeco Barista and very good to excellent espresso inconsistently on the La Pavoni. What I mean by decent is: acceptable slightly sweet flavor profile with no sour taste and no burn taste albeit with a homogeneous / muddled flavor and acceptable body / mouth-feel with lots of crema but lacking in that syrupy mouth-feel. Espresso worthy of a milk based drink or an Americano. What I mean by very good to excellent is a distinctly sweet flavor profile with two or three readily identifiable flavors with absolutely no sour or burn taste and excellent syrupy / creamy mouth feel; that kind of you-want-to-keep-it-in-your-mouth-for-while feel. Espresso worthy enough to be served by itself. I have been able to get good micro-foam from the La Pavoni. I have been able to only get steamed milk or froth from the Starbucks/Saeco Barista. With the purchase of a new espresso machine the Starbucks/Saeco Barista will go into the closet and the La Pavoni will be used sparingly - mostly for single origin espresso.

My typical usage:
1) Weekday early morning - three double espressos, one for me, two for my wife's Americano
2) Weekday mid-morning - one double espresso for a short Americano for me
3) Weekday afternoon - one double espresso for my afternoon pick-me-up
4) Weekday evening - a drink with milk in it from a macchiato to a cappuccino to a latte to a steamer for both of us
5) Weekend morning - two double cappuccinos one for each of us
6) Weekend evening - a drink with milk in it from a macchiato to a cappuccino to a latte to a steamer for both of us
7) Guests typically get to choose from a menu of coffee options from anything above to drip coffee (Technivorm Moccamaster), Turkish coffee (with freshly ground cardamom), vac-pot coffee (Bodum Santos) or French press coffee. Typically no more than six (double) drinks back-to-back on an espresso machine maybe twice a month.

My ancillary equipment is / will be:
1) Mazzer Mini - due for an upgrade after the new espresso machine
2) 5-gallon spring water bottle with Flo-Jet BW-1000A (will consider an accumulator if necessary)
3) 5-gallon drain bucket

What I want to achieve with the new espresso machine is very good to excellent espresso consistently and excellent micro-foam. I am eager to put in the time necessary to develop the new skills I will need on a new machine. I want the convenience of a plumbed-in machine (5 gallon bottle now, water mains later) and drained machine (5 gallon bucket now, main drain system later). Note that I have made the conscious decision to exclude machines with a tank regardless having the ability to switch between a tank and plumbing-in; I do not need nor desire that level of flexibility. I am simply tired of filling the tank and emptying the drip tray. I want a machine I can be happy with for 5 + years. I will maintain the new machine myself and would like to do most (if not all) of my own servicing/repair - I am somewhat handy / mechanical. I am willing to spend in the $2,000 ball park keeping in mind that spending less is a good thing.

My coffee for the espresso machine:
Freshly roasted
1. Extracto Eleven or Solutionary espresso blends
2. Velton's Bonsai espresso blend
3. Intelligentsia Black Cat espresso blend
4. Stumptown Hair Bender espresso blend
5. Many more choices I intend on trying

I live in Portland, OR so I have local access to a lot of great coffee.

Typically on the La Pavoni I use 14 - 16 grams that yield ≈ 1.0 ounce after a 25 second extraction including pre-infusion time +/- 2 seconds. Typically on the Starbucks/Saeco Barista I use 16 grams - 18 grams resulting in ≈ 2.0 ounces after a 25 second extraction +/- 2 seconds.

In addition to being capable of producing excellent espresso and micro-foam in the right hands, below I have listed what I see as the Pros and the Cons of these two machines. The underlined Pros I deem to be unique to the one / not offered by the other.

Quick Mill Vetrano:

Pros:
01) 58mm E61 Brew Group - widely available, easily serviceable, relatively inexpensive parts
02) Plumb in water main and drain - no more filling the tank or emptying the drip tray
03) No burn steam and hot water arms
04) Brew and steam simultaneously
05) Rotary motor - quiet
06) User serviceable - lots of open spaces "under the hood"
07) Not too complex internally - fewer parts potentially means fewer problems
08) Easy to use once you figure out "cooling flush" and steaming power
09) Upgradeable Pressure Stat - is this a worthy upgrade?
10) Vacuum breaker so you can put it on an inexpensive timer and will not get vapor lock
11) Automatic boiler refill
12) Insulated boiler - less heat loss, lower electricity costs
13) Stainless steel frame - won't rust
14) Dual manometer - provides important information for use and service
15) Non-compression values on steam and hot water valves - low cost serviceability
16) Sold & serviced by Chris Coffee Service - my research shows they are a great firm to deal with
17) Adjustable, leveling legs
18) Cup warmer
19) 15 amp outlet - no 20 amp A/C outlet conversion necessary
20) Add a group thermometer $100
21) Add a bottomless portafilter $60
22) Lever action - start and stop extraction when you want
23) Access port on bottom of machine for heating element removal - helps with easy serviceability
24) Steam arm and water arm on a ball joint so can swing out beyond edges of the case
25) Single boiler - uses less energy than a dual boiler machine
26) Dry pucks
27) Knock out pucks into a knock box - i.e. spring clips holds basket in portafilter
28) Excess water and steam is vented into the drip tray

Cons:
01) No soft preinfusion
02) To extract you can't push a button & walk away, you must lower the lever to stop the extraction
03) Lots of stainless steel to keep clean
04) Only a one (1) year warranty for parts and labor from Chris Coffee Service
05) Complex repairs might require sending machine to NY - high shipping costs
06) Drain kit $37 - extra cost
07) Pressure stat upgrade $60 - extra cost, worth it?


La Spaziale Vivaldi II:

Pros:
01) Plumb in water main and drain
02) Rotary motor - quiet
03) Dual manometer - provides important information for use and service
04) Brew and steam simultaneously
05) Sold & serviced by Chris Coffee Service - my research shows they are a great firm to deal with
06) Cup warmer
07) Add a bottomless portafilter $70
08) Dry pucks
09) Knock out pucks into a knock box - i.e. spring clips holds basket in portafilter
10) Excess water and steam is vented into the drip tray
11) Dual Boiler - no cooling flush needed each boiler can be kept at what temp you want
12) Programmable Passive Pre Infusion - allows more experimentation with different espressos
13) Programmable Offset Differential - not really a "Pro" but necessary
14) Volumetric Dosing - push a button for extraction and it is okay to walk away
15) Volumetric Dosing Adjustable Through Touch Pad
16) One Degree Group Temperature Adjust ability Indicated by LED Display - consistent temps
17) Group Temperature Adjustable Through Touch Pad - consistent temps
18) Electronic Boiler Refill
19) Built-in Safety Thermostat
20) Semiautomatic Hot Water Delivery
21) Fault Diagnosis Alarms
22) Functions in either 15 amp or 20 amp
23) Two year warranty from Chris Coffee Service
24) Dedicated online user group forum

Cons:
01) Boilers not insulated - higher heat loss / electricity cost
02) 20 amp outlet necessary to get machine to full power potential
03) Fairly complex internally - more parts potentially means more problems
04) Complex repairs might require sending machine to NY - high shipping costs
05) Drain kit costs $35 - extra cost
06) Painted metal frame - could rust over time
07) Converter cord $14 - extra cost
08) Timer $195 - expensive extra cost
09) No burn steam arm $45 - extra cost
10) 53mm portafilter - proprietary size
11) To change brew temperature you have to reprogram computer - hassle?
12) To change brew volume you have to reprogram computer - hassle?
13) More expensive than Quick Mill Vetrano

Thank you for any input / comments you might have.

Todd
LMWDP # 307

You have a 30 day "Buyers Remorse" period so use the Vetrano & see how much you like it. I came down to the same two machines 3 years ago & ended up ordering the Vetrano also. After 10 days of use I decided I made the wrong choice (for me), loaded it into my car, drove up to Albany & brought home the S1V2. I never regretted that decision & would still have the Vivaldi if a good deal on a Speedster had not come up.

The S1 steam boiler is easy to remove/ insulate & once you remove the covers you would see that it is not all that complicated & service/repairs are not difficult. You can make up a better drain kit from standard plumbing parts very cheaply, I've never heard anyone complain about their frame rusting, you are better off with the standard steam arm, changing temp & volume is very quick & easy. Go to the S1 Cafe, download the excellent Owners Manual & read through the various programming procedures. I ran a dedicated 20A line for mine but lots of owners run their Vivaldis on a 15A circuit & are quite happy with the performance.

Your pros and cons lists would be a lot shorter and more meaningful if you removed the features that both machines have.

BB Huell wrote:08) Dry pucks

Don't buy either machine. Neither makes really dry pucks.

April Fool is still a long way off

I can't speak to Vetrano. The Vivaldi is the first real espresso machine I've owned, and after 5 months with it, we've become good friends. My German friends call her Schotzie.

John covered it well. Changing pre-infusion times, brew temps, shot volumes, are all a snap. I just bought some Kaowool to insulate the SB, but most of the time I have the SB off; when I know a milk drink is coming up the boiler only needs 10min. or so to come up to temp. For my purposes, a timer is not needed. When I get up I turn it on, and by the time I'm dressed and whatever it's ready to go.

You can run it on 15amp, and for all intents and purposes you wouldn't know it wasn't set to 20. Also, I've never seen the need for a no-burn steam wand, but would suggest you consider the 9mm tip.

Recently, my machine had an issue with what I believe was a defect in manufacturing that took this long to act up. Tim and Jason at Chris' were both great in walking me through the repair. There isn't that much to working on these things if you're handy and can turn a wrench.

One of the things that your list didn't mention is what steps are needed in either machine for descaling, i.e., how easy is it to get at the heating elements, drain the boiler etc.

The bottom line is that the Vetrano is a great HX machine and the Vivaldi is a great DB machine. I enjoy using my Vetrano, but luckily I bought it on eBay without knowing much about all of these machines, O/W I would have been paralyzed as well!

Todd,

All your details seem so mechanical. Did taste ever enter in to your analysis?
Coming from a lever background, you might prefer another group to an E61. It's
too bad that the espresso gear market is so small that we have to order our
gear from across the continent. This is not a snub on CCS; they do a fine job.

Coffee_no_sugar

Thanks all for the replies. Let me see if I can respond:

JohnB. wrote:You have a 30 day "Buyers Remorse" period so use the Vetrano & see how much you like it. I came down to the same two machines 3 years ago & ended up ordering the Vetrano also. After 10 days of use I decided I made the wrong choice (for me), loaded it into my car, drove up to Albany & brought home the S1V2. I never regretted that decision & would still have the Vivaldi if a good deal on a Speedster had not come up.

The S1 steam boiler is easy to remove/ insulate & once you remove the covers you would see that it is not all that complicated & service/repairs are not difficult. You can make up a better drain kit from standard plumbing parts very cheaply, I've never heard anyone complain about their frame rusting, you are better off with the standard steam arm, changing temp & volume is very quick & easy. Go to the S1 Cafe, download the excellent Owners Manual & read through the various programming procedures. I ran a dedicated 20A line for mine but lots of owners run their Vivaldis on a 15A circuit & are quite happy with the performance.

That "Buyers Remorse" program is a great option - good to know. Glad to hear that the S1 is easier to work on than I assumed. I will read through the owner's manual. Thanks for the input.

Bob_McBob wrote:Your pros and cons lists would be a lot shorter and more meaningful if you removed the features that both machines have.

Yeah, good point.

cafeIKE wrote:Don't buy either machine. Neither makes really dry pucks.

April Fool is still a long way off

What I should have said was that I want to be able to knock out a puck with one quick knock. The spring clip lock mechanism that locks the filter basket into the portafilter will have more impact on that than just a dry puck. Neither of my current machines have said mechanism so I have to pull the filter basket out of the portafilter and then knock that. It has not worked very well for me.

peter wrote:I can't speak to Vetrano. The Vivaldi is the first real espresso machine I've owned, and after 5 months with it, we've become good friends. My German friends call her Schotzie.

John covered it well. Changing pre-infusion times, brew temps, shot volumes, are all a snap. I just bought some Kaowool to insulate the SB, but most of the time I have the SB off; when I know a milk drink is coming up the boiler only needs 10min. or so to come up to temp. For my purposes, a timer is not needed. When I get up I turn it on, and by the time I'm dressed and whatever it's ready to go.

You can run it on 15amp, and for all intents and purposes you wouldn't know it wasn't set to 20. Also, I've never seen the need for a no-burn steam wand, but would suggest you consider the 9mm tip.

Recently, my machine had an issue with what I believe was a defect in manufacturing that took this long to act up. Tim and Jason at Chris' were both great in walking me through the repair. There isn't that much to working on these things if you're handy and can turn a wrench.

One of the things that your list didn't mention is what steps are needed in either machine for descaling, i.e., how easy is it to get at the heating elements, drain the boiler etc.

I will look at the owner's manual - then I will have a better idea of how easy operating the S1 is. Does the manual provide info on routine maintenance?

sweaner wrote:The bottom line is that the Vetrano is a great HX machine and the Vivaldi is a great DB machine. I enjoy using my Vetrano, but luckily I bought it on eBay without knowing much about all of these machines, O/W I would have been paralyzed as well!

Yeah - this paralysis is no fun!

coffee_no_sugar wrote:Todd,

All your details seem so mechanical. Did taste ever enter in to your analysis?
Coming from a lever background, you might prefer another group to an E61. It's
too bad that the espresso gear market is so small that we have to order our
gear from across the continent. This is not a snub on CCS; they do a fine job.

Coffee_no_sugar

I made the assumption that either machine would be capable of producing espresso I would enjoy. What I didn't say was that my taste palate and descriptors are underdeveloped. I have lots of room to grow there. I also made the assumption that the shots produced by my La Pavoni would be different from what ever semi-auto machine I bought. I have read that lever machines can be better with nuanced flavors from single origins coffees - which I would like to explore. Regarding going cross country to buy a machine: I agree - it is too bad. However, I did venture up to Seattle to test some of these machines and had a less than stellar experience. I was disappointed with the demos and what I perceived as bias to a machine I was not interested in.

So, it looks like the S1 is a little easier to use than I once thought. I will read through its owner's manual to continue the learning.

Stay tuned and thanks again.

Todd
LMWDP # 307

I've been very happy with my La Spaziale. The double boiler design, accurate and consistent temp adjustments and powerful steam for easy microfoam made the machine a pretty straight forward choice for me. The non stainless exterior is SOOO much easier to keep clean, and I preferred the visual aesthetics of the Spaz. I suggest rather than a detailed list of minute feature differences, you focus on the larger factors that will impact your ability to make better espresso. In my opinion, the temperature stability and ease of adjustment is a big advantage over an E61 group machine, by offering a more consistent environment in which to fine tune your skills and explore a variety of coffees.
My Spaz produces dry pucks easily dislodged with a single modest knock.