Pasquini Livia 90 upgrade advice

Recommendations for buyers and upgraders from the site's members.
pasquiniupgrader
Posts: 31
Joined: 9 years ago

#1: Post by pasquiniupgrader »

Hi everyone,
First post here. I have used a Pasquini Livia 90 for around 12 years with a Pasquini grinder and I have the desire to upgrade in a big way.
My routine is making just 2 Latte's every morning. Bear in mind, I love the process and want high end stuff. I want equipment that will last a long time and require little maintenance. So, I am asking for recommendations.
Options
Marzocco GS3, Vesuvius, Profitec 700, or ??? While the Breville seems like a great value, I fear its long term reliability.
Grinders - Mazzer mini E doserless (seems good for low volume use), or something better.

Thanks in advance for suggestions.

Cheers,

Brian

User avatar
Compass Coffee
Posts: 2844
Joined: 19 years ago

#2: Post by Compass Coffee »

Welcome to HB. Have you read this recent buying advice thread with 17 pages of discussion that may be of interest? Best espresso machine/grinder "in the cup" at budget of $3000, $6000, and $9000

If not read it and you may have some more specific questions. Sure some of goes off in left field but there's a lot of good discussion too.
Mike McGinness

User avatar
boar_d_laze
Posts: 2058
Joined: 17 years ago

#3: Post by boar_d_laze »

Hi Brian,

I upgraded from a Livia 90 + Pasquini Moka a little more than four years ago.
pasquiniupgrader wrote:Options: Marzocco GS3, Vesuvius, Profitec 700, or ??? While the Breville seems like a great value, I fear its long term reliability.
Vesuvius is barely a step away from prototype, and in the first stage of production. The first batch of Vesuvius machines have very poor reliability, probably something in excess of 25% have had one serious problem or another; poor F&F on the edges; some bad welds; and the steam wand is a known issue. At $4K+, I'd give them some time to work out the bugs on the bench before ordering one.

The Profitec 700 had some serious teething issues as well, including a lot of leaks. Whether they're past that, I don't know. If you're into other high end, convertible, prosumer, E-61 DBs in ultimate enclosures, you should probably add the QM Lucca 58 to your list. Understand that these machines aren't different where it counts from more prosaically priced and housed DBs from Izzo, Rocket and Vibiemme. Much of a muchness.

The GS/3 seems to be past all that, a really solid machine. If you're interested in pressure profiling they can be had with a Strada conversion (new and with an LM guarantee) from HiTech espresso for about the same price as a stock GS/3 from the usual good dealers.

Since you've been using a Livia 90 for so long, presumably you've become very good at temping an HX. If so, you might want to skip the limitations of prosumer DBs, as well as the expense of commercial DBs and go straight to a commercial HX.

The Elektra T1, La Cimbali Casa, and NS Appia II are all extremely good. I bought a La Cimbali and have been thrilled with it. I've gone to a lot of folks' houses and tried a lot of different machines -- including nearly all of the name brand prosumers HXs and DBs as well as La Marzocco GS/3s and a Speedster -- and if I had to do it again I'd buy another Casa. As far as I'm concerned, it combines looks, ease of operation, a unique "temperature hump" which benefits the cup, incredibly solid build and production capacity better than any other single group.

The point is not that the Casa is so great, but that you should look for something which puts everything together for you in the same way the Casa did for me. And, in the meantime take the "I bought this so you should too" recommendations with a grain of salt. If there was one machine which was best for everyone, we'd all have it.

With the right beans, skills and grinders, most good straight pump machines will pull a very similar and nearly equally good shot. What you're really looking at are the other things.

If you want a different cup, you'll have to look at a lever or a pressure profiler. My own take is "no big deal," but you're certainly entitled to your own opinion. If you haven't already start seeking out quality lever shots (and pressure profilers if there are any) in your area; and see what's what. If you don't think a lever makes a much better cup than a straight pump, then don't bother with a lever or a pressure profiler. Except that if you do go for a GS/3, you might as well get it with the GS mod... because, why not?

Whatever you choose, plan on plumbing in and out. If you absolutely can't plumb, buy something which allows you at least some control of preinfusion (which excludes anything with an E61); but a better solution would be to find some creative way to plumb, like mounting the machine on a cart or counter outside the kitchen with a jug and flojet beneath.

Don't discount looks and feel.

GRINDER GRINDER GRINDER
Grinders - Mazzer mini E doserless (seems good for low volume use), or something better.
High capability machines can take advantage of much better grinders than the Mini. If it's a question of buying something which fits under the cabinets, there are better choices than the Mini; but better to find a spot for the grinder where height isn't an issue.

The first choice you have to make with grinders is whether you want to single dose by weight or time dose with a hopper. Single dosing is the way to go for people who think retention is a big deal. An on demand grinder is a great deal more convenient -- especially if you make more than a couple of shots per session -- but requires you to flush some beans in order to ensure freshness.

The maintenance issues with my La Cimbali Junior Max were driving me crazy, so in 2012, I decided to get something at least as good and hopefully better which wouldn't. I was and am strongly agnostic on the issue of mechanical, sweeping doser vs "doserless," but found God in the hopper long ago so did and do not want to single dose. After a lot of testing I bought a Ceado E92 (big conic), did a great deal more testing since.

Same story as the Casa, if I had to do it all over again.... Yep. And same moral o' the story. Don't buy an E92 because I like mine so much, buy a grinder which suits your needs and desires as well as the E92 suits mine.

I suggest any one of several big flats in the Mazzer Major class as a bare minimum. But, with a few exceptions, big conics pass more flavor "bandwidth" (aka "spectrum") and with better distinction between the flavors ("separation").

The Compak K10 PB (motor driven) and HG One (wank the crank), both big conics, are consensus choices for single dosing.

As far as I'm concerned, the standout, time-dosing big flats are the Anfim Super Caimano Barista, which is an expensive, awesome, not a bare minimum anything but as good as it gets; Ceado E37s; and Mahlkonig K30 Vario.

Super Caimano Barista aside, I prefer on demand big conics. The Ceado E92, and Compak F10 are outstanding in all respects.

Good luck,
Rich
Drop a nickel in the pot Joe. Takin' it slow. Waiter, waiter, percolator

SJM
Posts: 1819
Joined: 17 years ago

#4: Post by SJM »

Wow.
I just got a Livia 90 and I think she's the best.
I can't imagine needing to upgrade in my lifetime.
She just does it right.

pasquiniupgrader (original poster)
Posts: 31
Joined: 9 years ago

#5: Post by pasquiniupgrader (original poster) »

Thanks so much for the advice.
I think I'm going to go with the
Marzocco Volumetric GS3 and
Compak E10

Any last words of advice?

jkline
Posts: 10
Joined: 15 years ago

#6: Post by jkline »

I'm now in the same boat! My Livia has been well used since '99-- I think either the CPU or solenoid has failed. All the wire insulation/plastic is hard and brittle. Water reservoir same. Not sure if it is worth putting a lot of money into this baby, especially as it is getting phased out by Pasquini.

My requirements: must have a water reservoir.

Wish I were a tad more handy, so I could bypass/reconfigure the electrical.

FirstBetta
Posts: 184
Joined: 10 years ago

#7: Post by FirstBetta »

i haven't been able to find a lot of info on the 90. Someone whose input I respect has suggested a 90 as an up grade for me.

The first thing I would like to know - Is it an HX? I am an impatient cuss and can't see myself enjoying the temp flush routine especially since the usual instructions say you'll quickly learn the right amount. I need instructions like "flush X ounces for Y temp reduction" which I can then modify using that as baseline. No disrespect intended for those who have issued the usual instructions. My idiosyncrasy only!!!!

Anything else that will give me any insight into the operation of a 90 would be appreciated.

User avatar
boar_d_laze
Posts: 2058
Joined: 17 years ago

#8: Post by boar_d_laze »

FirstBetta wrote:The first thing I would like to know - Is it an HX? I am an impatient cuss and can't see myself enjoying the temp flush routine especially since the usual instructions say you'll quickly learn the right amount. I need instructions like "flush X ounces for Y temp reduction" which I can then modify using that as baseline. No disrespect intended for those who have issued the usual instructions. My idiosyncrasy only!!!!
Yes a Livia 90 is an HX. Not only is it an HX, but it's a "dragon," and requires fairly frequent temp flushing. The first part of a its cooling flush is establishing a baseline by stopping the flush at the end of "flash boiling." The second part is beginning a new flush and counting seconds until the brew temp is at the desired temperature. The third part is (immediately) locking in the prepped pf and pulling a shot.
Anything else that will give me any insight into the operation of a 90 would be appreciated.
I had two. One, at home, for almost twenty years; and the other, in my office, for four.

Solid machine, good steamer, fast recovery, gets too hot muy pronto, no preinfusion, can pull a great shot when operated competently.

It's an old design, no longer made, but still capable of pulling a good cup. Not very user friendly though. Good chocie? Depends on (a) compared to what? and (b) how much money are you willing to throw at the espresso machine conundrum? Everything else being equal, I'd rather have a used Livia than a used Oscar. Not as good as most compact E61s, and not nearly as good as a BDB.
Drop a nickel in the pot Joe. Takin' it slow. Waiter, waiter, percolator

FirstBetta
Posts: 184
Joined: 10 years ago

#9: Post by FirstBetta »

BDL

Thanks for the info. I'll think about it, I'm like other newbies, totally confused. I am almost the the point of putting pictures of some machines on a dart board and throw darts at it to decide which one I should get. :oops:

User avatar
boar_d_laze
Posts: 2058
Joined: 17 years ago

#10: Post by boar_d_laze »

FirstBetta wrote:Thanks for the info. I'll think about it, I'm like other newbies, totally confused. I am almost the the point of putting pictures of some machines on a dart board and throw darts at it to decide which one I should get.
The espresso market is very competitive. Machines like grinders tend to run in groups in which design, price, performance and features are interchangeable. Climbing the price ladder, these are: Hybrids; Compact prosumer HXs; prosumer HXs; compact prosumer DBs; prosumer DBs; etc. Once you've found the right general group, you'll probably be equally happy with almost any of the machines in it.

There are a few machines which stand out as sui generis, like the BDB, but just as with the other machines there's always a price to be paid balancing what you do get against what you don't.

For the money, $1300, the BDB is the best in the cup; good enough to be paired with the very best grinders; most barista friendly; most beginner friendly; and has the most (useful) features. However it is mass produced on an Asian assembly line, not hand assembled in Europe; it is only a mediocre steamer; and the skin and frame are plastic.

Start with that as a beginning point and figure out what -- if anything -- you can't live with. If it's not right, begin looking at alternatives.

Unless you have a huge budget, finding the best fit for you will mean making some compromises. compromises.

And as always...

GRINDER GRINDER GRINDER

Rich
Drop a nickel in the pot Joe. Takin' it slow. Waiter, waiter, percolator

Post Reply