Pairing best espresso machine with Baratza Vario, max budget $3000

Recommendations for buyers and upgraders from the site's members.
Jermeister
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Joined: 9 years ago

#1: Post by Jermeister »

Hello All,

I'm in the midst of my research journey, but beginning to feel a little lost. Thought it would be a good time to ask for some input from those with more knowledge and experience.

Little background - long time coffee lover, always wanted to get into espresso, but until recently couldn't really justify the cost (I've just stuck with manual brewing for years). Recently decided to buy a Vario with the steel Ditting burrs, and now I wonder why I waited so long to get decent equipment. So I'm set on fulfilling my long time dream to get a proper espresso machine.

I have a good palate when it comes to espresso - I know a good shot when I see it being pulled/taste it, but no experience pulling shots myself. I'm sure I'll enjoy the process of learning.

What I'm looking for:
- max of $3000 budget seems about right
- Not plumbed in. I'd like mobility for taking the machine to different locations, and I could control what water is going into the machine.
- Despite what I just mentioned, I'd like something I could turn on and leave on once it is in one spot
- We have a cafe at our church that I run, so while daily use would be light (under 10 shots daily), weekends I'd like to take it and serve espresso drinks, so I want the ability to serve 20 to 30 cups of coffee in a 2 to 3 hour span.
- Steaming is important

A few other factors:
- I live in Japan, where electricity is 100 V. Most of my Cafe owner friends say that it isn't enough to run a proper machine, but getting a 200 V plug in, either in my Kitchen or at the Church is not a problem
- Serviceability. I know you all probably won't have answers here, but there are no espresso machine dealers close to where I am. So a dependable machine with as few things as can go wrong as possible would be great, or an online vendor that would work with me shipping parts internationally if they were needed. I imagine well known brands such as La Marzocco or La Cimbali would be easier to get parts/repairs for somewhat locally. Something I could even repair myself would be better.
- Longevity. I want something good that I can start with but continue to grow on. Eventually, a Speedster would be my dream, but that machine is far more of commitment than I am ready for at this time, for many reasons beyond just the initial sticker price. I have a lot to learn before making such a purchase.

A few machines that have caught my eye so far are the Londinium L1 and the Bezzera Strega, but I'm not confident of the serviceability of the Strega here in Japan. The L1 seems like it would be easier to get support for via internet and shipping. I like the idea of a lever machine. But then I get to looking at things like a Domobar or Alex Duetto, and wonder if that is a better route. Those machines don't seem to hold as much appeal, but then that is where I get a little lost.

Something like the Linea mini feels like I am stretching my budget a bit farther than I want to for now, but I would be interested to hear comments regarding the actual gains on that additional $2000 dollars. From what I have read, it seems like I should be able to get a good machine within the budget I am thinking.

I know some will immediately tell me to upgrade my grinder, but I just bought a grinder, and for now, my focus is the espresso machine. Down the road, something like the HG-One is intriguing, but one thing at a time.

Appreciate your input.

Prescott CR
Posts: 363
Joined: 9 years ago

#2: Post by Prescott CR »

Jermeister-

I can only speak to the Londinium in your list of machines. I don't have an L-1, I bought an L-II for a retail customer to use. The build quality and shot quality are excellent. The L-1 is a different beast then the one I have, but I'm certain when it comes to quality they are built to the same standards.

There are L1 owners on this forum, so hopefully one of them will answer you question about an L1 doing 20-30 shots in 2-3 hours. You can also ask your question on the Londinium forum, I want to say there is an owner in Japan who was active on the forum but I could be wrong. If there is that would be the person to talk to especially when it comes to the question of power supply...

In that price range you'll have some nice options! I would almost say you 'can't go wrong' :)
-Richard

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jfrescki
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Joined: 14 years ago

#3: Post by jfrescki »

One quick thing I noticed, is the steel burrs. With the Vario, you'll need to get the ceramic burrs. I think some have been able to pull shots with the Forte from the steel burrs, but the Vario's burr carrier is not up to the task. I tried and got gushers.
Write to your Congressman. Even if he can’t read, write to him.
- Will Rogers

cmin
Posts: 1393
Joined: 12 years ago

#4: Post by cmin »

Yeah just noticed that, the steel burrs are for brewing not espresso, you need the ceramic burr set.

Séb
Posts: 363
Joined: 10 years ago

#5: Post by Séb »

The Londinium L1 is a fantastic machine and it would be my choice if i had to make a selection from your list. No problem doing 30 shot in about 3hrs. My friend own one and we did a lot of intensive tastings sessions where we where pulling shot after shot continiously. I have just ordered an L2 for one of my customer following my experience i had with the L1. I think you can't go wrong with this machine.

If you can, i think it could be a good idea to upgrade the grinder for a Forte AP or even better if you can.

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baldheadracing
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#6: Post by baldheadracing »

jfrescki wrote:One quick thing I noticed, is the steel burrs. With the Vario, you'll need to get the ceramic burrs. I think some have been able to pull shots with the Forte from the steel burrs, but the Vario's burr carrier is not up to the task. I tried and got gushers.
That was my Vario experience as well.

Otherwise, back to OP:
- get 200v for sure.
- I know a lot of people are talking levers, and I love levers, but, unless the lever "look" is a selling point, there are other options to consider.
- If I was serving 20-30 milk-based drinks in a couple hours *every* weekend, then I would want a volumetric machine with a big boiler - at least a Junior Casa, or perhaps an Appia, or an Elektra Sixties. I also would not want a pour-over, I would want to run the machine off of a flojet and a large carboy and not have to worry about running low on water. I am not saying that the other solutions are bad, but when serving, speed is important - the time from when a person wants a coffee to the time that person gets it; whether one person shows up, or five at once, or there are ten people in line. You'd need a two-group lever to keep up with a one-group volumetric.
- Mind you, I would probably run a couple good drip brewers for the church situation before investing in an espresso machine.
-"Good quality brings happiness as you use it" - Nobuho Miya, Kamasada

Jermeister (original poster)
Posts: 4
Joined: 9 years ago

#7: Post by Jermeister (original poster) »

jfrescki wrote:One quick thing I noticed, is the steel burrs. With the Vario, you'll need to get the ceramic burrs. I think some have been able to pull shots with the Forte from the steel burrs, but the Vario's burr carrier is not up to the task. I tried and got gushers.
Thanks for clarifying that. I do have the ceramic burrs as well - had a feeling I would have to switch back. What I'm thinking is switching to the ceramic burrs for an interim time until I can get a dedicated espresso grinder, and then keep the Vario as my brewing grinder (and re-install the steel burrs at that time).

Jermeister (original poster)
Posts: 4
Joined: 9 years ago

#8: Post by Jermeister (original poster) »

Séb wrote:The Londinium L1 is a fantastic machine and it would be my choice if i had to make a selection from your list. No problem doing 30 shot in about 3hrs. My friend own one and we did a lot of intensive tastings sessions where we where pulling shot after shot continiously. I have just ordered an L2 for one of my customer following my experience i had with the L1. I think you can't go wrong with this machine.
That's really great to hear such a strong positive yes on the capabilities of the L1.

Jermeister (original poster)
Posts: 4
Joined: 9 years ago

#9: Post by Jermeister (original poster) »

baldheadracing wrote: - get 200v for sure.
- I know a lot of people are talking levers, and I love levers, but, unless the lever "look" is a selling point, there are other options to consider.
- If I was serving 20-30 milk-based drinks in a couple hours *every* weekend, then I would want a volumetric machine with a big boiler - at least a Junior Casa, or perhaps an Appia, or an Elektra Sixties. I also would not want a pour-over, I would want to run the machine off of a flojet and a large carboy and not have to worry about running low on water. I am not saying that the other solutions are bad, but when serving, speed is important - the time from when a person wants a coffee to the time that person gets it; whether one person shows up, or five at once, or there are ten people in line. You'd need a two-group lever to keep up with a one-group volumetric.
- Mind you, I would probably run a couple good drip brewers for the church situation before investing in an espresso machine.
Thanks Craig, what you touch on here is where I begin to get a little lost. Junior Casa and Nuova Simonelli are machines that I do see around here (although I can't comment on the Appia specifically). Not as familiar with the Elektra Sixties but they look amazing, I'll have to read up on it more.

A tank/flojet type set up is also what one of my cafe owner friends suggested (although he wasn't so clear in recommending any specific espresso machine. He says that if you have a basic workable machine and grinder, the rest is up to technique.) With that kind of setup though, would that mean I would have to have that wherever I want to run the machine? In other words, these machines do not have their own water tank reservoir, correct?

I just kind of imagined a machine where I could grab the thing off my counter and stick it in the back of my van, run it to church and set it up in 20 minutes or so. Feel free to shoot me down here if I am not being realistic - that's where my lack of experience comes in.

btw - currently with the church cafe, I run two 6-cup chemex and 2 aeropress with my Vario (that's why I have the brewing burrs installed) . Have a bonavita 1.7 L temp controlled kettle, and I serve anywhere from 15 to 30 cups of coffee per weekend. It's just for fun, but the coffee I serve is top notch, if I do say so myself. :-)

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baldheadracing
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#10: Post by baldheadracing »

Before I forget - have a look at the reviews on this site (main page). Mr. HB often takes the review machines to a catering event, so these reviews can be a great help to you. When he does an event, the coffee is free, so people are comfortable waiting - and he has this great idea of having people write orders on cups placed on top of his review machine, so people can see their status at a glance. (Knowing status is one of the keys to happy waiting clients.)

Good to hear that you have the church cafe setup going well already. At my old church, at the end of the service, the sencha had better be on every table, and at just the right temperature, or there would be complaints. If people are willing to wait for a Chemex, then I don't think that you will have the same issue!

So yes, the machines that I mentioned are all commercial machines that have no reservoir. There are also switchable machines (see HB reviews), and one of these machines may work out better for you. I am just a big fan of having the least number of things to worry about, and not having to refill reservoirs is one less thing to worry about. That is also why I mentioned a volumetric machine (as opposed to a semi-auto). You start the shot, then pour and start steaming your milk, and you can concentrate on steaming milk, steam wand cleaning, etc., without having to keep an eye on the shot and stopping the pump at the right moment - once the programmed volume has been delivered, the machine stops.

The key point I was trying to make is that it is not so much how much coffees you are making, but when. "20-30 coffees in two-three hours" is 10 cups an hour, or one every six minutes. Let's assume everybody wants a latté. If one person shows up every six minutes, then you could meet that pace with a Rancilio Silvia (I wouldn't recommend it, I would go insane trying, but it could be done). On the other hand, if five people show up at once, a 1 every 6 minute pace means that the fifth person is going to be waiting a half-hour for their latté - while being entertained by my flushing madness. If you run a one group lever machine like a Londinium, then 1 every 3 minutes is a comfortable pace, so the last person is waiting 15 minutes (but gets to watch the lever go up and down). With a one-group volumetric, 1 in 1.5 minutes is a comfortable pace, so the last person is waiting 7.5 minutes (and only sees you pour latté art).

ETA: I am talking about commercial machines above - with the key difference being steam power, i.e., one can pour milk, give the steam wand a blast, steam the milk, wipe wand, and give the wand another blast - all while the shot is pouring. This more-or-less corresponds to ten seconds of steaming. Most commercial machines can do that; but many prosumer machines have difficulty, or are deliberately throttled back so that steaming takes 20-30 seconds - or longer.
I just kind of imagined a machine where I could grab the thing off my counter and stick it in the back of my van, run it to church and set it up in 20 minutes or so. Feel free to shoot me down here if I am not being realistic - that's where my lack of experience comes in.
Just thinking about this - all of these machines, including Londinium, any E61, etc., need about 40 minutes to an hour to get all warmed up. They're also all pretty heavy and can be awkward to carry. So from the complete opposite perspective - perhaps start with a Breville Double Boiler. You're going to be able to offer top-notch coffee, it warms up in 20 minutes, it is lighter and much, much easier to move about, and it gives you plenty of warning when you need to refill the reservoir (or empty the drip tray). If the coffee proves to be a hit at the church and all you are doing is cranking out latté's, then get a machine like the ones I mentioned and leave it at church most of the time - and keep the Breville at home. Just a thought ...
-"Good quality brings happiness as you use it" - Nobuho Miya, Kamasada

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