Rather than hijack anyone else's thread, namely Tink's (Heidi's) "Information Overload. Please help Me choose an espresso machine." or Marty Wooten's "If you had to choose between the following espresso machines...", I've decided to post my own version of "Upgrade-itis Solutions."

Here are MY options for a ROTARY PUMP, PLUMBED-IN machine, and what I see as their pros and cons, respectively. Please feel free to chime in with your opinions, be they based upon experience or not -- just let me know which it is! (BTW, the main grinder will remain the La Cimbali Max Hybrid.)

Option No. 1: Elektra T1 Automatic

Pros: 6.0L boiler, large enough for any conceivable occasion; absolutely gorgeous; programmable volumetric dispensing (six options!); solid, reliable workmanship.
Cons: a bit on the large side (13.5"w x 19.5"d x 17.0"h), but that's a minor point, as I have the room; requires a 20 amp circuit, meaning I have to have the kitchen rewired (something I will not be doing myself).

Option No. 2: La Cimbali Junior DT/1 Automatic

Pros: adequate size boiler for my needs (at least 95% of the time!); programmable volumetric dispensing (four options); smaller footprint (12.6"w x 18.5"d x 17.25"); solid, reliable workmanship, a workhorse; 15 amp circuit.
Cons: not the world's most beautiful machine (OK, I'm being polite) -- my least favorite, aesthetically, of the three options.

Option No. 3: Vibiemme Double Domo

Pros: double boiler + PID'd, making temperature control "easy"; solid reputation (based on single-boiler HX model); 15 amp circuit; visually beautiful; approximately $1,000 less than the other two choices.
Cons: new technology (for Vibiemme); not volumetrically controlled (thus virtually ending any hopes of my wife ever using the machine, and making it more difficult for me to multi-task); large-ish footprint (10.6"d x 21.0"d x 16.5"h), but --again -- very doable.

Anyone want to chime in with their 2¢?

Cheers,
Jason

I wish I could help more, but I have only ever seen one of these machines in person--the Elektra T1. It is stunningly gorgeous in person. Between the Cimbali and that one, I would take the T1 any day of the week without any second thought. The only thing I see that the Cimbali has going for it is extremely high quality parts and construction, and I got the same impression from the review of the Elektra as well as getting to see it for myself. For you, 20 amps is an issue, which is not surprising. I would think it's gotta hurt to drop $4k on a machine and then have to spend another couple hundred getting the wiring redone. Personally, I would run the cable to the outlets myself and let an electrician hook them up. Might save him some time and you some money, if you don't mind getting up in the attic (or whatever it may take).

Still, all that considered, unless you are thinking of entertaining that borders on catering, I think I would go with the DoubleDomo. You can always buy a spare espresso machine with the money you save between the machine and the potential rewiring that you avoid for entertaining higher volumes. Expobar and Nuova Simonelli have some solid HX machines that you could keep in the attic, only to bring out for parties.

Heh, that's a funny thought.

Mark,

Let's take a look at the volumetric dosing "issue": I am firmly in the "Ken Fox School of Shot Pulling" Camp -- i.e.: the following makes total sense to me.

Ken Fox wrote:Automatic dosing is a convenience, but using it to actually terminate shots will give substandard results regardless of machine. The reason is that in order for each shot to be the best that it can be, it will need to be terminated individually when it starts to blond. The factors that result in blonding are variable and especially in a low volume home setting, there is not enough opportunity to get those factors all lined up to allow enough "predictability" that you could ever rely on automatic dosing.

I have programmed two of the four buttons available for programming on my Cimbali Junior D1 rotary machine. One of them is used for flushing (which in my case is a constant amount, however this may not apply to your setup), and the other is used for making doubles. I have programmed the "doubles" button to dose the most that I would ever use for a double. 99.75% of the time, I stop these double shots manually. I haven't bothered to program for singles since I never make them.

Programming the shot button(s) has the benefit that if something interrupts your espresso making, you will know that the machine will turn off at some semi-acceptable point. These interruptions include such things as having the phone ring, or having to go to the front door when the doorbell rings. There is at least a chance you will end up with something drinkable in these situations, and at the worst you should avoid coming back to a big mess.

Thus, volumetric dosing is something I am used to with my La Val . . . even though I generally stop it before it stops itself, if you will. For example, I can be steaming milk, hit the "start" button while I'm steaming, finish the milk, and then stop the pump! Bottom line: it's just adjusting to a new routine.

I'm not worried about the electronics "breaking" vis-a-vis a "A3 v. T1" debate. Between the two, I would take a T1 every time.

Mark Podolsky wrote: . . . my 0.02 is to go for the DD if it is that important to you that your spouse be able to use the machine with any degree of success;

OK, I'm confused. My wife is much more likely to use the machine if it DOES have volumetric dosing (i.e.: an automatic) rather than NOT having it (i.e.: a manual).

* * * * *

Let's face it:

Elektra over La Cimbali: boiler size and aesthetics.

Elektra over Vibiemme Double Domo: volumetric dosing; tried-and-true technology (vs. new -- for VBM).

La Cimbali over Elektra: with similar prices, the only reason I can think of to pick the La Cimbali Junior D/T1 over the Elektra T1 is the 15 amp requirement (vs. the Elektra's 20 amp requirement).

La Cimbali over Vibiemme: volumetric dosing; tried-and-true technology (vs new -- for VBM).

Vibiemme over Elektra: $1,000 cheaper; dual boiler technology.

Vibiemme over La Cimbali: $1,000 cheaper; dual boiler technology; aesthetics.

Clearly if the Vibiemme Double Domo would come in a version which had a rotary pump, was plumbed-in, and had volumetric dosing, I wouldn't have posted this question in the first place!

I don't know -- do I throw a dart and pick one, or do I expend more energy thinking about it???

Jason

Man, you have it figured out. You know all the advantages, as you say. I feel similarly about the DoubleDomo. Actually, I would have a domobar super if it came in plumbed-in rotary. I heard that it's coming (in HX form) for more money than I would want to spend, but if it were out now, I would seriously be regretting Vetrano.

But, being as there is no DoubleDomo Rotary in sight, it sounds like you know what you want. Get the Elektra! A little rewiring in your house is easy and something that you will forget about in a month. Getting a machine you find unattractive--you see it every morning. You sound like I fee about the Cimbali. It's not ugly, but it's not beautiful. The Elektra is like artwork.

I enjoy looking at my Vetrano every morning, and I know that I would have a lot of buyer's remorse If I had bought something ugly. I knew it the minute that I got my broken Brasilia in the mail. Even if she weren't damaged beyond my repair skills and budget (bent frame and panels), I would have regretted her every morning that I got up to make an espresso. I just didn't find the machine beautiful. I think, for the $3-4000 you have in mind, you need to get something that you really find attractive.

It seems to me you are trying to decide between these based on specifications only.
HB/Dan Kehn made the point elsewhere (loosely quoted): you can't and shouldn't.
Dan's main machine is an Elektra?

As to the DD (DB) being new, this is not a valid point at all. All these machines share similar innards when you go down to the vital organs.
With DD being Db, it still will have the E/61 group on a loop with the brew boiler, to keep it at the right temperature. I could even imagine this to be a HX as well. If it isn't, the brew water being at the proper brew temperature, the group will be slightly too cold. If it is actually on a HX, you will have a similar issue as with a single boiler HX.

About La Cimbali, a professional espresso machine repairman said to me they were short on the HX. This would mean you have to run it slightly hotter than other machines for it to be able to do series in a commercial context. It then will have a lot of steam. But, sitting idle it may heat the group quite a lot. Question is if this short HX is an issue, in the home context, and even if it is an issue in the small one mentioned here.

Another thing is, two of the machines are not E/61 group based. E/61 has a form of pre-infusion implemented the others have not. There has been considerable debate on pre-infusion on these HB fora, but IMO no conclusive evidence about the relation between machine spec (pre-infusion) and coffee quality.

About the electronic/volumetric operation. If we consider pre-infusion as a form of pressure (temp?) up-profiling, in Italy, I would see barista do post-infusion or pressure down-profiling. I do that myself as well. In the videos on this site, I see a lot of abrupt switching off. I would put the E/61 lever in the middle position first and after some time, push down the lever completely. You can't do that on an electronic machine - I think.

All reasons to take your grinder and favorite beans, and make a tour along these machines to have tastings. Preferably being able to adjust a few parameters to optimize for your beans and home circumstances.
It's not like you are spending small change and will buy a Synesso or GS/3 in half a year. I would expect.

Regards
Peter
Netherlands
Europe

CafSuperCharged wrote:It seems to me you are trying to decide between these based on specifications only.
HB/Dan Kehn made the point elsewhere (loosely quoted): you can't and shouldn't.

Fantastic advice.

If you didn't have a machine at all, I could understand the impetus to make a decision and get something on the bench - risk of making the wrong choice be damned! But you already have a Valentina, don't you? Why hurry? I'm not sure how practical it will be for you, but couldn't you make a few trips to actually check out a few of the contenders? Your experience with the Valentina means that you will know exactly what you want out of a machine and the experience will give you a lot more peace of mind than anything that we could type at you!

Cheers,

Luca

luca wrote:. . . but couldn't you make a few trips to actually check out a few of the contenders?

I'd love to! If I knew anyone who had one/them . . .

Ask a Dutch person to pronounce "WAF" and ask them to tell what they said. That's a dog, barking.
Have you seen that youtube movie of a kid's second birthday party where the parents ask the kid what this and that animal "say"? And then they ask "what does mommy say?" Toddler: "no, no, no."

On topic and serious. I cannot imagine volumetric dosing to be important in a procedure that stops the pump upon blonding. I try to grind-dose and pump at parameters/variables where there is some headroom between switching off the pump and the blonding. And I am not overdosing the way most of you do in the US according to some on this forum. Also I cannot imagine the wife would find all those little knobs a transparent user interface. To me the electronics add components I cannot repair, raise the price and add complexity or chances of repair. Someone, in one of these HB threads, wrote he needed the electronics because it enabled him to work in parallel without worrying on the machine to be stopped. After some debate he then said he would stop the machine upon blonding, usually before the electronics would stop automatically. This tells me two things. You do not need the electronics and your settings grind/grind volume/pour time do not match the beans you are using and the intended cup of espresso you want.

And then the WAF. Determine you wife's preferred learning mode: visual, auditive, kinesthetic. Next determine her preferred approach to learning via that channel: mental model (deep reasoning), fumbling (trial and error, tell me nothing and I will discover), bookworm (give me precise definitions, yes but ... , I am not interested in an imaginary debate between scientists X, Y and Z), cookbook (give me the ingredients - shopping list - and tell me the simple steps of the process).
Given the way we debate in these fora, I would assume most of us are at least strong in the auditive/visual, however our delicate coffee tastes imply well developed kinesthetics as well. We may prefer to approach a learning process through the auditive channel. If the wife has visual preference (which she probably has) then this is not going to work. Another thing is we may approach the whole thing from the deep reasoning perspective (sic) and the wife may want cookbook. This is not meant pejorative and I am not saying this is always the case, just examples. And within one person it varies depending on context. Regarding your children's health your wife may be the deep reasoning type and you, sirs, the cookbook ones.
It starts with motivation. If she does not discern an exceptional espresso from a good one, forget it. My wife discerns the excellent ones from the less excellent ones, but does not mind to even drink a lousy espresso - as long as it is not a serious sink shot. She just is not interested in the hassle. She will listen to a simple audio thing with improvised FM antenna that sounds like reasonable AM, yet will ask me "did you change anything to your stereo - it sounds better?" and I tell her "yes dear, the AC leads." And she will go back to that "thing" and enjoy her "music" (I could not even listen to that on my own set).
However, I still have been able to, patiently, show and tell my wife, inviting her to stand by me when I do her coffee, for cosiness, because the espresso might be too cold, what I am doing, one thing per day, casually, in the ritual, and how that translates into the excellent espresso in her cup.
And she has done a few herself, when I was gone. And from the residual crema in the cups she used I could tell they must have been pretty good.
My new work project location does not allow my simple pod espresso machine in my office and now it sits next to the main one at home. My wife uses it because it is simpler. Yes, the coffee is not as good, she says, but then again never as bad as some of the less good ones. That machine has no real estate to heat cups. She flushes some water into the cup - enough, accidentally, to get the machine to the right temperature - and does a lungo.
Herein could lie a trick (plus, pro) for a dual boiler machine...

Regards
Peter
Netherlands
Europe

WAF: wife acceptance factor