Hey guys...I realize that this will be a difficult opinion to give unless you actually have some personal experience with both types of machines. I have refurbished a 1996 2000 watt single group Astoria Laurentis machine, plumbed in and situated on my kitchen island with my Mazzer Mini E doserless. I will presume that my commercial machine will be pretty low maintenance with me having it heated for possibly 3 hours a day & making perhaps 3-6 drinks a day. I also know that I can easily access every single part on the machine, and since it is SAE made, should be able to for years to come.

But how will my espresso quality compare with, for instance, a Vibiemme Domobar Super 2B 2011 Version 3 with all the latest bells & whistles? I know that by & large, FRESH coffee, proper water temp, grind-distribution-tamp and pump pressure should theoretically produce the same coffee, regardless of machine: "hand of the barista" (mano in the Italian 4M expression). Even with a PID controlled machine, will there be a discernible taste difference? I will assume that the PID will assure a very accurate extraction temp where I have to temp surf (although the method seems fairly fool-proof), and my 3-4 degree fluctuations do make some taste difference. But is this consistency (and the obvious esthetics tweak over my dated looking machine) the main improvement I could expect in an expensive upgrade, such as the Vibiemme?

I realize that all the contributing parameters in espresso making do make a difference, but can someone with taste comparison experience with these two types of machines (or similar) quantify the leap with a modern home/commercial machine over my workhorse commercial, if there indeed, is one?

Much thanks!

drumhead954 wrote:I realize that all the contributing parameters in espresso making do make a difference, but can someone with taste comparison experience with these two types of machines (or similar) quantify the leap with a modern home/commercial machine over my workhorse commercial, if there indeed, is one?
Much thanks!

I think it boils down more to the operator running the machine, than the machine itself. I've seen many, many people pull horrible shots (not even worth drinking) from machines that cost over $10K. By the same token, I can pull very nice shots using my $200 La Pavoni at home.

In a commercial environment, repeatability and consistency is very important. As well as not having to worry about temp surfing so much, etc.

Frankly, in my experience, - when both machines are dial in and the operator knows his/her stuff - then I do not really see a huge difference between a good quality home machine and a multi thousand dollar E61 machine. For a long time (prior to actually using an E61 machine), I thought there would be a big jump up in quality from a more expensive machine. However, really, at the end of the day, it's just something pushing hot water through a compacted puck of coffee. In fact, I think an argument can be made that the lever machines allow you to vary the pressure profile, whereas the commercial pump machines are basically just an on/off situation, which takes the operator out of the loop.

I just haven't seen a lot of difference in shots. I think the difference between a good quality home machine and a full blown commercial machine is actually so little that any inexperienced barista can quickly make the shots coming out of your super expensive commercial machine taste far worse than the shots coming out of your good quality home / prosumer machine. Like I say, I have seen plenty of people pull absolutely horrendous shots on very pricey machines (simply because they have no clue what they are doing).

In fact, just a few months ago, I stopped by an espresso cart in Oceanside - and had the worst shot of my life. It was like a small Americano and tasted horrible. The cart owner was allowing his wife to pull shots and she had no clue what she was doing. The shot must have been close to 4 oz and was burnt to all get out.

In most cases, I think the good shots are a product of people who know and love espresso and who are always chasing after the perfect shot - regardless of what equipment they have. Someone who really knows how to extract espresso can make even a low cost/quality machine stand up and sing, if you give them a decent grinder and some fresh beans.

If it were me (and I was going to be turning out shots of espresso in a commercial / retail setting), I think I would probably get a couple thousand dollar Rocket (maybe a heat exchanger machine) and simply learn how to pull the best shots I could off it. Unless you are turning out 100 shots an hour or something, I would think that would be plenty.

Buy good beans also. There's a big difference in beans. The best machine / technique in the world can't help the wrong/bad beans and/or beans which just are not well suited for espresso.

Same goes for learning to steam/froth milk. Sit down and steam a bunch of milk to different temperatures and taste it. You'll be surprised what a difference 10 degrees can have on the sweetness of your milk. And stick to whole milk - it has the most sugar in it, which is what you are generally trying to release by steaming.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents on the subject.

Ray

Having rummaged through around two dozen espresso machines I would have to say the biggest difference between the two named machines / tiers of machines is quality of parts used in manufacturing. Even the most expensive prosumer machines have many inferior parts to commercial machines. The majority of prosumer machines tend to use a combination of the upper echelon of home machine parts and lower echelon of commercial quality parts. When you dive into one the pressurestat is cheaper, the pump is cheaper, there is plastic / silicone tubing versus copper tubing, the boilers are smaller (does not really matter a whole lot if you are just serving yourself / friends), etc. I find prosumer machines to be much more finicky / fragile than any commercial grade machine. The fact that a new brewtus has a PID is a wash, because you can easily install a PID yourself for under $150 and get the same temp control from the commercial machine.

Sounds like you have a nice machine. Happy shot making!

Warrior372 wrote:Having rummaged through around two dozen espresso machines I would have to say the biggest difference between the two named machines / tiers of machines is quality of parts used in manufacturing.

+1. Having restored two commercial machines, I can safely say that both will likely outlast me provided that they receive normal maintenance. Both prosumer and commercial machines can pull great shots, but I would choose a commercial machine over a prosumer any day for the build quality.

Thanks to all three of you guys for experienced, thoughtful & insightful answers. That was exactly the info I was seeking...wondering if I spent the $2000+ for a prosumer machine, would I regret it later. Having been all through my machine, the quality of parts & workmanship is very obvious. In fact, I have a much greater respect for Italian engineering/manufacturing than I did before, although I admit that I had no basis for my presuming they were inherently inferior to other European countries. I realize that the espresso machine is their own forte' though.

Thanks again for responding!